What do you do when your sexual orientation doesn’t change? Your answer to that question–now or down the road–will significantly impact your life. Gay Christians’ responses to the lack of change is often the determining factor in whether or not a person ultimately affirms homosexuality as God-blessed. Having either participated in or observed the ex-gay movement for the last fifteen years, I have noticed certain patterns. Usually, initial involvement in a support group brings relief and a sense of camaraderie. There are noble commitments to live for God “no matter what.” And the mantra, “It’s not about heterosexuality; it’s about holiness” keeps everything afloat . . . for awhile. Yet, after four to five years (for some even longer), disillusionment sets in. As it turns out, single celibacy is more challenging than we thought it would be. Or maybe we just assumed we would be one of the lucky ones who ended up married. Singleness was fine for a few years, but five, ten, twenty? A lifetime?
Like everyone else we crave emotional and physical intimacy. We watch our straight (and gay) friends go home to their partners at the end of a long day and a twinge of sadness flushes through our body. We see those around us starting families while we come home to an empty house. And the whole “struggle” starts to feel senseless. We begin to ask ourselves, “Is it really wrong?” “Does God actually expect me to live a single, celibate life?” “If God is so concerned about same-sex attraction why hasn’t he changed my desires after all this time?” That’s when it happens. Some of us who thought homosexuality is sin change our minds. The common theme I see in testimonies of Christians who once disavowed homosexuality, but later affirm it is: “I didn’t change.” For examples, here are quotes from online ex-ex-gay stories:
“I entered reparative therapy… again… hoping that God would honor my efforts and finally fix me. . . Throughout two decades I sought reparative therapy and other ex-gay treatments and methods. Prayer, fasting, inner healing, accountability groups, medication, and 12-step groups. Even a scary exorcism attempt with lots of shouting. Since none of it made any difference, I became pretty despondent and hopeless over time.”
“And thus began a 24 year journey of repression, costly pursuits of healing and repeated disappointment. I never changed . . . . In 2000, at the age of 40 after spending about $25,000 for therapy, conferences and programs, and after 24 years of fighting, I became very depressed. I gave up ministry and trying to change my sexual orientation. I left my church and isolated myself from the Body of Christ for 6 years.”
“After college I decided to move back to Dallas and go about changing my sexuality. My search led me to a small group in Dallas. . . I never once was introduced to a man who had been cured of his attraction. I never saw any progress in any of the men there with their struggle. A large number of the men were pastors, deacons, university officials, politicians, worship leaders, etc. Sadly, many had been there for 5+ years, paying thousands of dollars for the hope of a change.”
“I did go through another program during that time, this one geared more generally toward sexual addictions (since that’s what homosexuality was, according to many of the books I’d read), but again, it brought me no closer to my goal of becoming straight.”
“Unless there was a divine miracle, I would never feel about women the way a heterosexual man felt about women.”
Some of us may be tempted to chide these individuals, “Well, their focus was in the wrong place. They made sexual orientation change their priority instead of Christ.” Its true, change seems to have become the focal point. But, I believe they started out with the same noble aspirations I did, “I’ll live for Christ no matter what.” Despite our best intentions, our lives sometimes turn out differently than we once envisioned. I can completely empathize with these ex-ex-gays. I have had times (and sometimes still do) when I wonder if it’s worth the struggle. Or if I am just enduring something that really doesn’t matter in the large scheme of things.
So let’s be honest. Let’s have a real conversation about the reality that some of us may not live up to our initial noble expectations. Let’s talk about the fact that some of us are not going to experience change in our sexual orientation and the implications that has on our lives:
- How do you feel about the fact that your same-sex attraction may not change? How does that affect the decisions you make for your life?
- If you do not affirm homosexuality, what would you say to these ex-ex-gays who have clearly put blood, sweat and tears into trying to do what they believed was right?
- If you do affirm homosexuality, what is it about the lack of change in sexual orientation that made you believe homosexuality is okay?
- How does change or lack of change in our life circumstances relate to Christian theology and the Christian life?
Note: I hope to expand on my own thoughts in a separate post, but would like to have a general discussion first. Also, this conversation is NOT about whether change is possible or not. That has already been hashed out here. Please do not leave comments about that. This is a discussion about how we respond to, and base decisions for our lives on, the lack of change.
170 Comments
October 13, 2009 at 3:35 pm
1. I am resigned to the fact that my ssa won’t change- its something that is extremely hard and depressing to think about, but I am realistic about my struggles and know that change is almost certainly not going to happen. That fact doesn’t really effect the decisions I have made for my life- I made those decisions after already resigning myself to the reality that my ssa and my evangelical Christian faith hold for my life.
2. I certainly don’t hold it against them- singleness and celibacy over a lifetime is an extremely bleak and painful thing to consider. I suppose I envy them to some extent, if I can be honest, but also pray that they would repent and see that an honorable and good life does not have to include sexual satisfaction.
3. N/A
4. As I see it, the Christian faith is one that is going to demand painful sacrifices of its adherents (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-19). God has asked of me one that is somewhat larger than what others give, but also less than what some give (cf. Hebrews 12:4)- that is my sexuality. So, I offer it to him, ask for his strength in living without it, and soldier on. As anyone who has SSA knows, that last sentence is almost impossibly hard to live, and I am not anywhere near that optimistic and hopeful in the day-to-day, but it is what we must do- remembering the hope we have in Jesus (cf Rom 8:18, Rev 21:1-7).
October 13, 2009 at 7:15 pm
I think “change” needs to be defined. I have changed to some degree in relation to my sexual attractions, but I have NEVER had the expectation (within this lifetime) to change entirely. I have always suspected that I will remain as I am more or less. My goal has been twofold: live holy by faith and learn to be content in whatever state I am in as the Apostle Paul. (Phil. 4:11) I know that IF I were to find a good wife she would need to be a very special Christian lady well suited to my personalities, gifts, needs, strengths, weaknesses and calling in the ministry – and I to hers. I’m 40+ and the days do get lonely as most people my age are already married and not thoughtful of the lone single guy in church (who is also the biggest theology geek in the congregation). But the Lord has given me so much I have no just cause to complain.
October 13, 2009 at 9:44 pm
As hard as it is, and as harsh as it sounds, the truth is, it doesn’t matter. We aren’t, as Christians, free to act out on a sexual orientation that is in opposition to God’s plan, even if it is in hopes of happiness and for resolution of loneliness. If the Word of God could be amended for individual cases, then the Word of God would not be strong and true.
As I said, this sounds harsh. I have struggled for 37 years. I’ve been married for 33 years. I have prayed through all of those years that God would free me from all same-sex temptation. He could. He hasn’t, not completely. I still base my life on what God says in His Word and I believe His grace truly will be sufficient. His grace has seen me through failure and it has seem me through triumph.
I empathize with those who want to give in. This is not an easy journey and there are plenty who say there is no reason to see it through. But, they are not the One who created us and Who gives us strength to bear the life we live in a fallen world. The Bible is clear: we will all have troubles. This is one of the more difficult troubles, to be sure, but it is not one that He makes us bear on our own. We are not truly alone or without someone who understands.
If change takes a lifetime, we endure it.
October 13, 2009 at 9:57 pm
This is an issue that I’ve really had to face head on the last year or two. I tried to change my sexual orientation starting in fall of 2005. By fall of 2007 I think I realized what I was fighting for just wasn’t going to happen. There were times when I did feel a lessoning of the desires I’ve had toward other men, but there were never any real desires to be with a woman or to find a woman attractive in the same way I’d found men attractive. This revelation was actually rather depressing, but in a way somewhat freeing. Trying to change your mindsite/attractions is not really an easy undertaking, and it was literally draining on me. So, to give up trying sort of set my mind at ease somewhat. But again it was depressing because I realized it meant I’d always be alone unless I go against God and be with a man. Okay, so the last year, it’s been difficult to not consider or even dwell upon the idea of being with another man, just because of the things you mentioned–the loneliness, prospect of never being with anyone, or having a family of my own, etc.
I think the thing to remember though, whether gay or straight, is that God has defined what healthy sexual relationships are to be. We can go against God if we choose and make up all sorts of excuses for doing so, even fooling ourselves to believe that God couldn’t possibly want us to live single, maybe even lonely lives, but that doesn’t make it right.
I think God isn’t concerned about whether we’re gay or straight. I mean, I think He probably cares about that, but only for our well-being. I don’t think God expects us to change attractions we had no part is making for ourselves in the first place, but simply on following and obeying Him regardless of our circumstances. That’s what I keep focusing on.
Yes, change didn’t happen for me. I tried hard, got depressed when it didn’t happen, gave up trying, and then afterwards had to really consider why and how God could expect me to always be without anyone (or to have a partner in life). My conclusion is that Christ himself gave up a lot for me, including His very life. If He can give so much for me, surely I can give this one thing for Him. It is hard. This last summer I had to accept the fact that I could never be with the love of my life, and that was extremely difficult to accept, but those feelings have eased and my life has gone on. And the good news is that living Christ’s way, I’ll have so much more than I would living life my own way. Someone told me to think about being with my friend for all eternity. I realize that’s Jesus’ way, that’s His reward for me and all other followers. In the end, His way leads us to so much more than our way ever could. Yes, His way may be harder at times, but the end result is that we will have so much more doing things His way than we would doing things our own way.
I think a lot of people lose sight of that.
October 13, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Hi Karen,
I disagree with your implication that lack of change is the determining factor for former ex-gays becoming gay-affirming. I and other former ex-gays I know were prepared to accept celibacy and heeded ex-gay ministies’ disclaimers about not promising a change in sexual orientation.
“1. How do you feel about the fact that your same-sex attraction may not change? How does that affect the decisions you make for your life?”
Again, turning gay-to-straight was not the motivation in my ex-gay experience. However, continuing to experience same-sex attractions did undermine my confidence as I believed the ex-gay messages that SSA were a sign of my continued “sexual brokenness”, psychological dysfunction, unhealthy relating, spiritual brokenness, etc. So, I really felt trapped thinking that as long as I continued to have SSA, I was not blessed by God. I couldn’t help but believe that lack of change was sign of my insufficient faith and that I was not fully living up to my potential.
“3. If you do affirm homosexuality, what is it about the lack of change in sexual orientation that made you believe homosexuality is okay?”
Again, I disagree with the question’s assertion.
I will say lack of any discernable change in my attractions did lead me to question the basis of the ex-gay message. What I concluded was that ex-gay theories were not based on research or careful study, but were an assortment of fringe theories about sexuality intended to affirm and protect fundamentalist beliefs — regardless of the harm and ineffectiveness of the theories. Lack of change did lead me to identify the flaws of ex-gay theology and psychology.
“4. How does change or lack of change in our life circumstances relate to Christian theology and the Christian life?”
It doesn’t or at least shouldn’t. The Bible doesn’t promise change of sexual orientation. The concept of sexual orientation is outside the realm of Biblical theology – nevermind, ex-gay theology, reparative therapy, etc.
Lack of change did lead me to question ex-gay theology which eventually led to me to identify my core beliefs and doubts — including the Christian doctrines I was raised into.
Continued same-sex attractions does challenge conservative Christian culture’s assumption that all Christians are destined to become heterosexually married. Although Christianity was founded by single persons such as Jesus and Paul, Christian life doesn’t really seem to welcome non-married, single, celibate Christians (except Catholic clergy).
October 13, 2009 at 10:57 pm
I don’t understand this comment from Thom Hunter:As hard as it is, and as harsh as it sounds, the truth is, it doesn’t matter. Of course it does! It matters to us and it matters to God. I am 44 and have been through hours of counselling, support groups etc.
I have come to the place where I must stop asking questions. All I can do is trust God day by day and focus on my relationship with Him. I don’t judge those who embrace their sexuality and I don’t judge those who were sure that I would change. Sure, I seem to get deeper into pain, but I have to trust that God is with me in my journey or I’m stuffed.
October 14, 2009 at 3:10 am
Karen,
Great post and great questions. After all my soul searching about change and resolution, I finally had to change my position on how I viewed my faith. I found that I had been using “blind faith” in many ways and not honoring all areas of my life, mentally emotionally spiritually and physically with regard to sexuality. After careful consideration that gay men and women were excluded from the Bible, I went from the Evangelical position of blind faith, to a more moderate position I call discerning faith.
I found that my struggle with sexuality was demeaning my relationship with God. Every time I felt I got closer, I stumbled with the “but what about my sexuality Lord” question all the time, and it vexed me getting closer and closer to Him. It wasn’t being gay that was the stumbler, it was about my actions with being gay and having a lover etc, which I didn’t have at the time.
After much self hating and hating of others who did or did not agree with me, I had to admit, my emotional state was not conducive to help God or my fellow man much at all. So then I went into a spiral of not being worthy or good enough to even help out in a soup line. It was all quite de-stablizing. Then it hit home, God loves me no matter what, and that’s what changed my life.
I then started dating and I prayed to God to send me someone that I could love, and who would love me, and who was Christ centered. And it worked. I am completely aligned now on all levels with sexuality and help out at church with a big smile, knowing I have God and a partner in my life. And I feel God smiling on me and my heart is full as is my life. We are looking now into adopting and starting a family. There is no way to explain how deep the feeling of having one of God’s children in our home to raise, is. It’s going to be most likely, the most wonderful experience of my life.
I feel terrific knowing I can pray to God now, and not come with a baggage so heavy, that I could not hear his voice. I hear more clearly now and I have been “sent” on many missions of grace and help to others, that I never had before. Mainly because I was too depressed. My heart and life is full and beaming. And I have God to thank for that.
I will never be crying away in depression over this issue again. Ever.
As I look back, I realize that my greatest test, was allowing myself to believe in myself, and in so doing, I was blessed for getting that lesson. God and I are really the same, as he created my soul. And I know the difference between right and wrong, I learned that at three. I just had some sorting to do, and it finally all clicked, I’m alright just the way I am, sex life and all, and that is “right”, not wrong. Sometimes life throws us curve balls, and we just have to keep swinging the bat until we hit the ball.
I now am a firm believer that the homosexual comments in the Bible were based in fear and reflected the darkest nastiest homophobia of the times, and were not the spoken word of God at all. Yes, I tossed out all reference to Biblical homosexuality out of my life. Sorry folks, your judgments about that no longer phase me. Nor do judgments get starving people fed or economic folly resolved.
Gays and women did not have a say in the Bible, that in itself is suspect, and I certainly no longer can put my faith in str8 homophobic scriptural writing men to determine my gay love and sex life for me. It’s actually how I was hurting myself.
Like today as yesterday, they simply want us to go away, and one of the best ways is to keep us endlessly “struggling” below the radar, groveling in emotional muck.
Some may hate us, they may think we are trash, that is their cross to bare however, it is those very beliefs we believe about ourselves that they instill in us, that holds us back from great love of God and each other. This is not God’s way, nor is putting us in the same grouping as murderers and thieves God’s way.
So I have to take the Bible as a controversial document on this issue, live my life fully, and love it just the same. With my life lining up as well as it has since I took a good look at my basic faith, I am happy, greatly happy with the results. It’s been hard, horribly hard, but the unyielding energy to balance my life did prevail. It took a lot of soul searching, endless conversations with friends, and a lot of secular as well as Christian counseling. Balance in sex love and relationship is what I wish for everyone as their goal, and at the same time, I support everyone on their journey right where they are at, at any time.
Thanks again for your great post. May God bring you the best always.
October 14, 2009 at 5:36 am
I wonder if the same-sex attraction struggle is not intended to be one of God’s gifts to us. Go with me for a moment in this thought.
I read the other day in “My Utmost for His Highest” (for the umpteenth time) that God’s silence may be His way of telling us He thinks we can bear a higher revelation for our lives. We think it means we are cut off (perhaps we are unworthy?) or that we must pray harder and seek Him more fervently. Not necessarily so. It may indeed mean that God trusts us to rest in Him, no matter what our life looks like at the moment, and that He is going to take us to a place in our spiritual life with Him where our understanding will increase. If this is true, it is also true many of us will never get there because we fail to grasp the significance of the silence.
How many of us just stop going to God if we believe He has stopped coming to us? Or how many find somewhere else to go — to a person or a theology that can comfort or affirm us in our pain and confusion? Isn’t silence an expected part of pursuing God?
Oswald Chambers also spoke a lot about obedience and the amazing way that a simple act of obedience on our part opens heaven’s truth gates for us. I have proved this to be true in my own life, over and over.
Some days I think I wouldn’t wish the SSA struggle on anybody. Other days, I think that struggle is a supreme act of grace. If God disciplines those He loves, does He not also comfort the afflicted? Is their affliction possibly the very door through which He wishes to bless them? I certainly found this to be true in my great struggle with depression. How could it be less true in the SSA struggle, I finally had to reason?
God used that realization to bring incredible healing to me. I no longer struggle. I remember my past life from time to time. And if even for a moment I begin to walk that path in my mind, I am well aware that those old feelings could be reawakened. Why on earth would I want to go there? I’ve been taught to play that video forward long enough to see the end.
C.S. Lewis said God whispers in our pleasures … and shouts in our pain. Hello! To acquiesce to the human desire for pleasure or to place our need for human companionship above our need for divine companionship is to hear God only whisper. “What did He say?” Or as the serpent hissed to Eve in the garden, “Indeed, has God said …?” We can easily make idols of sexual fulfillment or intimate friendship.
And I must correct the “faith is blind” assertion in an above comment. Oh no, faith is not blind. We have to choose not to see what God is revealing to us every day through the marvel of His creation and the miracles all around us.
Yes, I am blessed to have a 28-year marriage that works, despite my nearly torpedoing it about 12 years ago because I craved the fruit from the forbidden tree. So the only singleness I contemplate is the kind that would be thrust upon me were I to be widowed. Some of you will think I can’t really understand the pain of being without a life partner. That’s true to a point. But I don’t think God cuts single people any slack in the obedience department. That’s the hard line of truth in Thom’s statement.
“Be still (cease striving) and know that I am God.” How very few of us really cease striving, and therefore do not know.
Debbie Thurman
TheFormers.com
October 14, 2009 at 6:04 am
Mike,
I didn’t say it doesn’t matter to God, or to us, that we may struggle and feel unfulfilled. Of course it matters. At points, the struggle defines us in the eyes of others and in our own eyes. What I said was that we don’t really have a choice, based on what I believe Scripture makes clear, other than to bear the burden through the gift of God’s grace and re-define ourselves through the power of the Holy Spirit. So, the choice for change is actually how to live with it if it is not removed. As believers, we can’t change what is right to match what is an infirmity, but we can use that infirmity, like anything else, for God’s glory, and, in that, we may be agents of change in others’ lives.
Yes, it matters to God. I’ve taken it to Him many times through the years and His response has mattered to me. It has resulted for me, however, in endurance and vision and sacrifice and hopefully sanctification, not surrender, at least not to something outside His will for me. Every time I have chosen to exercise my will above His and seek satisfaction in a same-sex relationship, I have suffered through separation from Him. That has been the recorded history of my choices.
Our struggles will not all be the same. Some will be more fierce and more painful, more sorrowful and drawn out. Some will be shorter and stand as testaments to God’s faster healing. It’s in His hands.
Thom
October 14, 2009 at 6:07 am
Debbie,
God is not silent as I can attest. Most are just too dense to hear.
If most were not too dense to hear, blind faith would not be a necessity for so many.
October 14, 2009 at 7:02 am
PS Though “hearing” can be fleeting, please understand I mean “dense” in the physio-molecular sense.
October 14, 2009 at 7:42 am
Great conversation everyone. I appreciate your comments.
Erik–yes I should define what I mean by change. I don’t mean change from one polarized opposite to another (sexuality is more complex than that anyway). Bisexuality or spousosexuality would be sufficient to marry. I am referring to a type of change that would allow people not to have to live single, celibate lives which is what it all boils down to and what makes the struggle difficult for many.
Norm–good to hear from you. Just to clarify, I am not trying to say that every person who is ex-ex-gay affirms homosexuality because they didn’t experience change. Certainly there are a variety of reasons. However, what I have observed and read, including with friends and leaders I have known, overwhelmingly the impetus for affirming has come out of the fact that change did not occur.
You said something that made me curious about your experience at PF: “I will say lack of any discernable change in my attractions did lead me to question the basis of the ex-gay message.”
Did you feel like you were given a message that change was possible for everyone? I know when I was there it was a mixed message of both hope for change, but also not everyone changes. It sounds like you were at a place where you willing to be celibate, but at some point you became dissatisfied with that? Some part of you was expecting at least some “discernable change” and when that did not occur you began to re-think through ex-gay philosophy?
Kurt–I think you make a really good point about how the struggle can take so much from a person’s life and in some ways render them “unproductive” in life and in relationship with God. I have certainly seen people stagnated by this. And I can see how accepting homosexuality provided relief to you from the burdens of shame etc.
You write: “After much self hating and hating of others who did or did not agree with me, I had to admit, my emotional state was not conducive to help God or my fellow man much at all. So then I went into a spiral of not being worthy or good enough to even help out in a soup line. It was all quite de-stablizing. Then it hit home, God loves me no matter what, and that’s what changed my life.”
I wonder if there is a third way? For example, does one have to affirm homosexuality in order to believe that God loves us or that we are worthy or to not be self-hating? I notice that many ex-gays will live in years of secrecy and shame and find much relief when going to a gay affirming church where they do not have to hide who they are. Those in more conservative churches are less apt to be open.
I do think its possible to be out and not self-hating while still believing homosexuality is not God’s best intent for us. I put myself in that category. I finally came to a place of being completely transparent about my life so that I did not live in two separate worlds. I am completely “out.” And that is so freeing. I also don’t feel any shame or self-hating because I have same-sex attraction. It just is what it is. And I know God loves me whether I am gay or straight. He loves the whole world.
I had one question from a Christian theology standpoint. If we make a decision that gives us relief is that always an indicator that its the right decision? I know there would be a certain relief and freedom in affirming homosexuality for my life. Yet, what I see in Scripture is that the right decision often involves inconvenience and pain. In the same breath that Jesus told his disciples that they need not worry because they are more precious that the sparrows and he knows all the hairs on their heads–in the next breath he tells them they will be killed, tortured, imprisoned, etc. We are constantly exhorted to “press on” precisely because the Christian life can be very challenging.
Also, I don’t think its fair to say evangelical is “blind faith” while moderate is discerning faith. We are always apt to consider our own views to be the most discerning.
Everyone–in regards to Kurt’s point that the struggle can result in years of depressed, self-loathing lives–I think he makes a good point. How do you think this can be addressed for those who do not affirm homosexuality in order to see changes in this area? I do see it as a problem. I don’t see why a person has to go to a gay affirming church to rid themselves of shame. What’s wrong with this picture?
October 14, 2009 at 8:06 am
Karen,
You are absolutely right. No one should have to go to a gay-affirming church to rid themselves of shame. If that were the case, then other church members should be seeking out gossip-affirming, or porn-affirming, or alcoholism-affirming churches. We can’t start building churches to align with various human conditions.
I believe there are signs — small ones — that mainstream churches are coming to grips with the reality that many Christians are among those who struggle with homosexuality. Though churches should be out in front of culture, rather than the opposite, this could be one small benefit of the cultural embrace of homosexuality. It requires churches to examine generations-old viewpoints. While the church cannot condone homosexual acting out, it can love those who live with same-sex attraction and, in that love, speak the truth, as the church should do with all sin. The church also needs to realize that the old “love the sinner, hate the sin” mantra is ineffective at helping anyone change, as a same-sex struggler is usually so self-identified with his or her struggle.
Shame and guilt are two different things, of course. We should not be required to live under shame for something we have in our lives that we did not seek and which we seek to change, regardless of whether we achieve total success. For many, success is in management, under God’s grace. Guilt, of course, is the result of doing something that is wrong. God is capable of removing the burden of both without affirming anything outside His will.
Thom
October 14, 2009 at 8:35 am
“If we make a decision that gives us relief is that always an indicator that its the right decision?”
I think we are meant to “live in the tension,” daily dying to self, which is politically/socially incorrect and even theologically incorrect in some circles today. It’s in “demon-possessed” valleys where we live out the bulk of our lives, and not on the mountaintops. We’ve got a lot of learning and relearning to do.
I well remember those old fantasies of wondering what life would be like if I could find “the woman of my dreams.” It’s one of those areas where Satan comes to us as an angel of light. I cannot put down anyone who is living in that reality as God values us all equally, and there are many prodigals in the world. It is certainly understandable that folks will want to go there.
But … our good is not God’s best, is it? How do we know what God might have shown us had we not settled for the only thing we could see or grasp?
As I alluded to earlier, I have known depression well. It was not just because of the same-sex struggle, but due to a mixed bag of junk in my life. Was that period in my life one of God’s ways of holding me closer to Himself so that I would not stray? What am I to make of the fact that my most significant struggle with homosexual urges came after I left my decade of depression behind? It was only then that I went from being tempted to having actual relationships.
I think we need to ask ourselves whether any depression we feel comes from self-loathing (presumed from repressing our deepest desires or who we think we really are) or from something else. Is it a kind of grieving over disappointing God? Do we have to put God in a box of our own making to be happy in a gay-affirmed life?
I wonder.
October 14, 2009 at 8:48 am
Karen, I agree entirely with you that the inability to change is a major factor in people stopping to believe in the orthodox Christian view of sexuality. People’s experience – their failure to change, their human need for companionship, etc. – clashes with religious doctrine, and for many experience wins. Some abandon religion entirely. Others have such emotional, social, and spiritual attachments to religion that they try to morph the religion to accommodate the new principles they’ve acquired through experience.
As usual, this phenomenon is neither new nor particular to the issue of homosexuality. Over the centuries, human beings have always bent not only their practices, but also principles when experience clashes with doctrine. The businessman justifies dubious business practices, the consumer justifies his consumption, the ruler justifies his autocratic governance, etc.
I think what’s a bit special about homosexuality is that the area of sexuality as a whole is so closely tied with our emotions and that the condition is so permanent. Say you’re an orthodox Christian man who can’t resist sexual intimacy with your girlfriend before marriage. You ask, what’s wrong with this? I love her, I’ll marry her. Etc. But soon you get married, and the questions slowly fade away. You are not strongly challenged to confront the issue as a matter of principle.
But the homosexual must everyday face this issue and be justified in his belief. It is, in this sense, a beautiful cross to carry, one that forces one, like the monastic in his cell, to focus intensely on God, and bear all the suffering this entails.
The questions…
1. I feel sad, of course. Life would be much easier if I did not have homosexual attractions. I wouldn’t have a conflict between my faith and my human desires.
I should say that I happen to be attracted enough to women that marriage is a possibility. But I’ve long ago accepted that I may remain single my entire life.
I sense the loneliness (or the need for sexual companionship) getting strong as I get older, but I’ve seen it coming. My abilities to cope through faith get stronger, too.
2. If you do not affirm homosexuality, what would you say to these ex-ex-gays who have clearly put blood, sweat and tears into trying to do what they believed was right?
What can I say but restate our orthodox beliefs. This is important, I think, since many were taught bad theology and still believe that that’s Christian theology. It’s important to set the record straight for the ‘victims’ of bad theology as well as for the future.
4. How does change or lack of change in our life circumstances relate to Christian theology and the Christian life?
Really, the more I get involved in such discussions, the more I think that everyone dealing with this would do well to read the ancient fathers. For one, they not only understood but also beautifully explained the basics – that God does not come and remove our passions (except by miracle, sometimes), that prayer and the sacraments are available for us to fight our passions, and that our fight takes a lifetime. Second, they lived this life of struggle for and with God. So they are wonderful examples.
So change or lack of change does not affect Christian theology. Of course, it affects us – our strength of belief, our doubts, etc. I suffer from doubt. But I am not the first!
October 14, 2009 at 8:57 am
As of right now in my life I’m okay with not changing. Every time I get close to giving up I just think how short this life is in comparison to all eternity. It’s easy to get disillusioned in the moment and give up, but in the long run this life is short. I’m not saying it’s not hard to see all your friends getting married, living together, having kids etc. And I totally understand why people do give up but I think when you do give up it has to be about more than just loneliness because you are giving up part of your faith too. It’s a decision that shouldn’t be taken lightly.
October 14, 2009 at 9:46 am
“I think what’s a bit special about homosexuality is that the area of sexuality as a whole is so closely tied with our emotions and that the condition is so permanent.”
“The condition” is not necessarily permanent for everyone, Saul, but I get what you are saying. The human condition is, and we all have a cross. Romans 7:14 on to the end of that chapter covers it well.
This you say well: “It is, in this sense, a beautiful cross to carry, one that forces one, like the monastic in his cell, to focus intensely on God, and bear all the suffering this entails.”
Alone before God, we are like those monks. It is a private place of beauty, hardship, growth and sometimes pain as we allow ourselves to be pressed into the wine God wants to pour out through us.
Your testimony has sweetened my life today. Thanks.
October 14, 2009 at 10:40 am
One thing I forgot to mention that I think is important to say is—it is not an us vs. them situation (for either side). The individuals I quote above are part of my “circle” so to speak. They have gone to the same conferences as me, been a part of similar groups. They are comrades. These brothers and sisters were saying the exact same thing at one point that I (and many of us) are saying on this blog. One of the individuals was on the “journey” for 24 years before he shifted gears. Do you think he was saying the same thing I am now at year 15? Absolutely.
I am not stronger, or more righteous because I am not affirming and they are. I don’t have more faith or am somehow better. It is only by the grace of God that I am in the place I am. We can sometimes simplify why these friends are now affirming. The fact is, this could be any of us.
The point is, I think we have to have a lot of humility when talking about these things. I hope that I do not return to a same-sex relationship because it would make me sad to go against my convictions. But I also recognize how easy it would be to do so.
Part of me doesn’t like to talk about the reality that many of us might not change–that can discourage people. But, the reason I do is because it is only in our honesty that we have any hope of continuing to walk in congruence with our convictions. And it is an honesty that is required on a regular basis. We will have to face the question “What do I do if I don’t change” again and again. We should expect it and be sobered about it. Because there really isn’t much that separates me from those friends who once carried the same flag as me.
October 14, 2009 at 11:32 am
Hi Karen,
“…Did you feel like you were given a message that change was possible for everyone? I know when I was there it was a mixed message of both hope for change, but also not everyone changes. It sounds like you were at a place where you willing to be celibate, but at some point you became dissatisfied with that? Some part of you was expecting at least some “discernible change” and when that did not occur you began to re-think through ex-gay philosophy?…”
There certainly were mixed messages. I understood that gay-to-straight change was not guaranteed. However, I was privately counseled that diminished same-sex attractions and gay-to-straight change was much more likely for me because I started the group at a relatively young (age 19) and had not lived as an out gay person. When I mentioned to leaders that I thought celibacy seemed a more realistic direction for me, I was advised not to rule-out hetero-marriage and was enthusiastically counseled about the joys of marriage. So, while I was told that celibacy was technically okay, I felt pressure to be more open to hetero-marriage.
More devastating though was that I believed ex-gay messages that my continued same-sex attractions were a sign of my lacking of sexual wholeness, masculinity, psychological development, parenting, and faith. I believed that if I was progressing, growing, and maturing in my development, masculinity, faith, etc. that my SSA would change in that they would at least diminish. When they did not change, my entire life was consumed with repressing or confessing SSA and seeking sexual wholeness, true masculinity, identifying/overcoming bad parenting, praying for more faith, etc.
Eventually, my life was completely out of balance and each day was consumed with overcoming my SSA. I realized that I was far worse off after going through the ex-gay process than I was when I first went it. That is what led me to stop and reassess the ex-gay messages and, later, fundamentalist doctrines.
“Everyone–in regards to Kurt’s point that the struggle can result in years of depressed, self-loathing lives–I think he makes a good point. How do you think this can be addressed for those who do not affirm homosexuality in order to see changes in this area? I do see it as a problem. I don’t see why a person has to go to a gay affirming church to rid themselves of shame. What’s wrong with this picture?”
I think conservative Christians with SSA need to differentiate between unproven/fringe ex-gay psychological theories and historical Biblical theology. From my experience, I think depression and self-loathing come from the ex-gay idea that SSA are the results of bad parenting, childhood abuse, sin, etc., etc. Conservative biblical theology does not promise gay-to-straight change, support pseudo-psychological ex-gay theories on the roots of SSA, or require hetero-marriage (if anything Paul upholds celibacy over hetero-marriage). Why can’t conservative Christians with SSA just acknowledge their sexual orientation as a natural biological variation and choose to live follow biblical celibacy?
The real challenge is the fundamentalist nature of conservative Christianity. The foundation of fundamentalism is the notion of a single truth, which somehow implies a single lifestyle (i.e. hetero-marriage, kids, etc.). Any trait that falls outside of conservative Christian culture’s ideal is often attacked and stigmatized.
October 14, 2009 at 12:24 pm
How do you feel about the fact that your same-sex attraction may not change? I have accepted the idea that I will probably be tempted by SSA for the rest of my life. I feel a definite pain at times, since I know that the Bible and the perfectly loving God (!) who is behind the Bible clearly command me to abstain from the gay sex I crave.
How does that affect the decisions you make for your life? I treat the pain as an opportunity to demonstrate by my obedience in abstaining from gay sex that God is absolutely worth it all!
If you do not affirm homosexuality, what would you say to these ex-ex-gays who have clearly put blood, sweat and tears into trying to do what they believed was right? I certainly feel the pain of the same struggle! Instead of focusing on sex, who you are attracted to, and the pain of saying no, think about God and about how good, loving, full of joy, powerful, and eternal He is. Consider that He is worth more than anything we can ever sacrifice!
If you do affirm homosexuality, what is it about the lack of change in sexual orientation that made you believe homosexuality is okay? I do NOT affirm it.
How does change or lack of change in our life circumstances relate to Christian theology and the Christian life? The lack of change which I have experienced is painful at times. Pursuing joy in God through suffering is a very important part of Christianity. The more I have experienced of how good and completely worthwhile God is, the more I have had the grace to say no to homosexuality and to seek joy in God instead. It has not been a matter of forcing myself to stop sinning, but rather I am so affected by the beauty and joy in God, that I see everything else, including sex, as something far less that I can drop for Him. I can gladly demonstrate by my very life and obedience that he is worth far more than a lifetime of gay sex. He is that good!
“In the pursuit of joy through suffering, we magnify the all-satisfying worth of the Source of our joy. God himself shines as the brightness at the end of our tunnel of pain. If we do not communicate that he is the goal and the ground of our joy in suffering, then the very meaning of our suffering will be lost. The meaning is this: God is gain. God is gain. God is gain.” – John Piper
October 14, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Karen,
Sorry about the “blind faith” assertion for others, I shall keep that to just my experience.
Regarding: “I had one question from a Christian theology standpoint. If we make a decision that gives us relief is that always an indicator that its the right decision?”
For me, being gay has a struggle because there is such a cultural war right now, whether gay affirming or not. Even if I say I made the right decision about my theological views, I still have to wake up to the despair of my fellow man / woman that is being discriminated against. The angst of the dark nature of things does bring me deeper insight about self and God, which is actually fascinating to monitor. It’s what will make us great sages and wise elders later on.
As far as theologically speaking, I did find that my decision to be gay affirming did open up God to me in a way that I had never experienced before, and it was groud breakingly incredible, and grows every day. My experience was that, as soon as I let go of all my judgments about my sexuality on all levels, God struck me with a bolt of love I cannot put into words. My heart opened like never before and I for the first time, understood the power of God. So that is how I new I made the right decision, for me. I guess I just went from fear to love about sexuality and all it’s meanderings, and that is probably the reason I have been so blessed ever since. I would say from that experience, going from fear to love is probably the right decision in any venue, if a right and wrong has to apply.
In the case of sexuality, I had to let go of my biggest fear, that God would abandon me or send me to hell if I were gay affirming and in a loving relationship with the guy of my dreams.
When I did that, released that fear, that is when all hell broke lose from within and left my life to be replaced by a deeper love from and to God. Was it the “right” decision? Karen, what’s your hit?
October 15, 2009 at 4:32 am
Norm, you write: “When they did not change, my entire life was consumed with repressing or confessing SSA and seeking sexual wholeness, true masculinity, identifying/overcoming bad parenting, praying for more faith, etc.”
I think you have really hit the nail on the head here. I do see this happening. My own life became consumed with it as well. Until I stopped trying to change. I would be curious if people have thoughts on this point. And if there is something within ex-gay ministry that could be shifted to help remedy this problem? Or perhaps some do not see it as a problem? Any thoughts?
I also agree with your point about how Christians can focus on things that are different than what is in Scripture. For example, the focus on marriage. I wonder about the Catholic group Courage and if they avoid this problem. Do those in the Catholic group have the same questions and concerns? Or because the focus is not on change or marriage do they cope better? I would be curious what the outcome would be if there was a study comparing and contrasting.
Kurt–you asked for my “hit” on your situation. I am not God and so cannot pretend to know what all God is doing in your life. It sounds like wonderful things are happening, particularly that you came to realize how much God loves you. I can relate to that euphoria because I went through a similar experience of self-loathing to a place of coming to understand God’s love and grace and it was truly transforming for me. My life has never been the same.
But I think the euphoria of understanding God’s love and grace is different from whether or not homosexuality is what God wants for us. It sounds like you feel a lot of freedom because you no longer have self-condemnation and also because you are not fighting against your desires anymore. But to me that does not translate that God is blessing homosexuality. We can enjoy success and happiness even when we are outside the will of God. That is why I think we need more than just experience as a guide.
Everyone–since I didn’t have a chance to respond to everyone’s comments, and because I want to highlight some of the comments I thought were helpful, I have cut and pasted quotes from folk here:
“As I see it, the Christian faith is one that is going to demand painful sacrifices of its adherents (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-19). God has asked of me one that is somewhat larger than what others give, but also less than what some give (cf. Hebrews 12:4)- that is my sexuality. So, I offer it to him, ask for his strength in living without it, and soldier on. As anyone who has SSA knows, that last sentence is almost impossibly hard to live, and I am not anywhere near that optimistic and hopeful in the day-to-day, but it is what we must do- remembering the hope we have in Jesus” (Semper).
“My goal has been twofold: live holy by faith and learn to be content in whatever state I am in as the Apostle Paul. (Phil. 4:11) . . . I’m 40+ and the days do get lonely as most people my age are already married and not thoughtful of the lone single guy in church (who is also the biggest theology geek in the congregation). But the Lord has given me so much I have no just cause to complain” (Erik)
“I have prayed through all of those years that God would free me from all same-sex temptation. He could. He hasn’t, not completely. I still base my life on what God says in His Word and I believe His grace truly will be sufficient. His grace has seen me through failure and it has seem me through triumph” (Thom)
“Yes, change didn’t happen for me. I tried hard, got depressed when it didn’t happen, gave up trying, and then afterwards had to really consider why and how God could expect me to always be without anyone (or to have a partner in life). My conclusion is that Christ himself gave up a lot for me, including His very life. If He can give so much for me, surely I can give this one thing for Him . . .In the end, His way leads us to so much more than our way ever could. Yes, His way may be harder at times, but the end result is that we will have so much more doing things His way than we would doing things our own way” (Brandon)
“I have come to the place where I must stop asking questions. All I can do is trust God day by day and focus on my relationship with Him” (Mike)
“So then I went into a spiral of not being worthy or good enough to even help out in a soup line. It was all quite de-stablizing. Then it hit home, God loves me no matter what, and that’s what changed my life” (Kurt)
“Some days I think I wouldn’t wish the SSA struggle on anybody. Other days, I think that struggle is a supreme act of grace. If God disciplines those He loves, does He not also comfort the afflicted? Is their affliction possibly the very door through which He wishes to bless them?” (Debbie)
“But the homosexual must everyday face this issue and be justified in his belief. It is, in this sense, a beautiful cross to carry, one that forces one, like the monastic in his cell, to focus intensely on God, and bear all the suffering this entails” (Saul)
“Every time I get close to giving up I just think how short this life is in comparison to all eternity. It’s easy to get disillusioned in the moment and give up, but in the long run this life is short” (Sarah)
“Eventually, my life was completely out of balance and each day was consumed with overcoming my SSA . . . Conservative biblical theology does not promise gay-to-straight change, support pseudo-psychological ex-gay theories on the roots of SSA, or require hetero-marriage (if anything Paul upholds celibacy over hetero-marriage). Why can’t conservative Christians with SSA just acknowledge their sexual orientation as a natural biological variation and choose to live follow biblical celibacy?” (Norm)
“Pursuing joy in God through suffering is a very important part of Christianity. The more I have experienced of how good and completely worthwhile God is, the more I have had the grace to say no to homosexuality and to seek joy in God instead. It has not been a matter of forcing myself to stop sinning, but rather I am so affected by the beauty and joy in God, that I see everything else, including sex, as something far less that I can drop for Him. I can gladly demonstrate by my very life and obedience that he is worth far more than a lifetime of gay sex. He is that good!” (MR)
October 15, 2009 at 8:23 am
Karen wrote: “I wonder about the Catholic group Courage and if they avoid this problem.”
I am Orthodox, but I’m a member of the Courage Online mailing list. I have not been to Courage meetings in person, but I think I know a bit about it from online discussions.
Courage neither discourages nor encourages change therapy. They offer access to resources for change therapy, if that’s what one wants. If one doesn’t, that’s fine. As you can see from Courage’s ‘five goals’:
1. Live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality. (Chastity)
2. Dedicate ones life to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer, meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass, and the frequent reception of the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist. (Prayer and Dedication)
3. Foster a spirit of fellowship in which all may share thoughts and experiences, and so ensure that no one will have to face the problems of homosexuality alone. (Fellowship)
4. Be mindful of the truth that chaste friendships are not only possible but necessary in a chaste Christian life and in doing so provide encouragement to one another in forming and sustaining them. (Support)
5. Live lives that may serve as good examples to others. (Good Example/Role Model)
any suggestion orientation change, let alone the necessity of change, is nowhere to be seen.
This is very much in line with Catholic and Orthodox tradition and theology as a whole, which focuses on chastity rather than marriage. The fact that celibacy is consecrated means that the single, celibate life is thought of to have spiritual value, unlike in many Protestant circles.
October 15, 2009 at 8:54 am
Karen,
Please allow me to clarify. My trek had nothing to do with curbing or eliminating sexual “desire”. That is impossible I think. That was never my goal nor did it ever enter my mind to do that. I have never felt separating sexual behavior from the fact that I’m gay was an issue.
My sexual darkness was shame and self condemnation of the entire package; being gay, being sexual etc. So I didn’t try to change myself through not having sex. I tried to change everything at the cause, not the effect if you will, because I felt broken demoralized and separate from God and society being “different” as a gay male. My goal, was to be totally straight and I was going to make that happen. It was all about me me me and my needs, and nothing about what God wanted. Man I was high maintenance. For everybody who had to put up with me and my constant chiding about the whole thing.
To treat myself as if I were in a life time sexual gay-to-str8 12 step program didn’t make sense as God is ever powerful and could change me no matter what. In the Bible, thought word and deed are pretty much the same thing anyway, and I knew I was not going to change my sexual thinking by not having sex. That I knew was a disconnect that would prove fruitless. You can remove eagle feathers from an eagle, and paste chicken feathers on him, but he will still act like an eagle, even if he can’t fly. I also didn’t have problems with porn and promiscuity which seems to be some of the trouble gay Christians run into, can’t handle, then throw out sex altogether thinking because of those actions, it’s all evil. T’was not my scenario, not part of my “baggage”.
God was either going to change the entire package to str8 or it was not going to happen. Now I think, “silly me to try to force God to change me. He gave me this beautiful body and beautiful mind and I was begging at his feet saying it wasn’t good enough.” Now I see how arrogant I was.
The sexual behavioral struggle that people feel and go through, was never my issue. My issue, or “relief” as you call it, was a relief from shame condemnation and self judgment of the entire package, not just a part of it. I was either going to be a homosexual, or a heterosexual, and that was that. I guess the best way to put it, my goal was never to be or settle for being a half-a-sexual. For me that would be splitting myself in two separate halves, the sexual half I hate and reject and the mental emotional half I love and accept. My God that would just not have worked for me. I was torn enough trying to do the whole enchilada. (Just shooting in the dark on that half-a-sexual word. Just not quite sure how else to say it.)
I felt if God was going to change me entirely, then that would simply happen per my request for help. Finally I heard God say “don’t screw with the plumbing OR the wiring. I made it. I’m not changing it. Now love it”. I kinda felt like, “ok. ok! I get it. Don’t argue with the landlord. This is my home and that’s it. Ok-fine. Now decorate every room the way you like and get used to it, all of it”
I’ve always lived by a rule my father instilled in me “if you’re going to do something don’t do it half way, do it all the way with your heart and soul, or don’t do it at all” and that has always stuck with me. I was living as a homosexual who wanted to be heterosexual to “fit in”to “God’s world”. So in a sense I was living like a halfasexual, and it was horrible. I was living half way, wishing I was a chicken when I was really an eagle so to speak. Now I “fit in”, (I got my eagle feathers back and flew the chicken coupe) and no longer want to change my orientation, and I am in God’s world. Always was.
I would never cut off just the sex as I feel sexual passion (much different from anxiety ridden over-sexualizing) is God’s way of connecting us with a partner so we are not lonely crying in the woods on the physical level, gay or straight. “When 2 or more are gathered . . . ” I see that as not just talking about friends or acquaintances or groups, but lovers too.
Anyway, sorry for the length, but I felt my story needed to be clarified on a deeper level so as not to have misconception. Does this explanation change any of your previous views about my story?
October 15, 2009 at 9:28 am
Kurt,
You have made your story clearer and certainly show how you arrived at your decision. I can empathize with much of your thinking, but would and did come to a different conclusion based on my understanding of God’s creative intent.
I agree that sexuality involves much more than just our behavior and that it is an expression of our yearning for connection, that it is an outward expression of our need to find respite for loneliness. However, like everything else in our being, these feelings also must be in submission to God and find their expression in His plan. For me, that precludes homosexual acting out. That excludes it from among the choices I have for connectedness. Certainly the need for chaste, deep, close, same-sex friendships remains, but not sexual.
I think sometimes we think because our perceived need is so great and stifling and because God is so good and loving, that His only response can be to meet that need the way we reason it should be met. We limit God and ourselves with that.
C.S. Lewis wrote:
“By the goodness of God, most of us mean (a sentimental type of) kindness — the desire to see others happy. What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, ‘What does it matter as long as they are contented?’ We want in fact not so much a father in heaven as a grandfather in heaven — a senile benevolence who, as they say, ‘liked to see young people enjoying themselves,’ and whose plan for the universe was simply that . . . ‘a good time was had by all.’ Yet mere kindness cares not whether its object becomes good or bad, provided only that it escapes suffering. As scripture points out, it is illegitimate sons and daughters who are spoiled; the true sons and daughters are disciplined. (Heb. 12:8) If God is love, He is by definition something more than mere kindness.”
I believe we do need to fit in to “God’s world,” the alternative being to fit in to “the world.” It’s a difficult choice, but He empowers us to do it, or, as Psalm 18:32 says, “He stoops down to make us great.”
Thom
October 15, 2009 at 9:45 am
“The fact that celibacy is consecrated means that the single, celibate life is thought of to have spiritual value, unlike in many Protestant circles.”
I think you are right, Saul, in that the single life and celibacy are not well understood among Protestants, in general. It’s a shame that folks generally get the message that they are somehow not whole if they do not marry. While marriage is an ideal that is essential to uphold, we clearly need to work on reminding people that Jesus also spoke of “eunuchs for the kingdom” as an accepted option, and Paul certainly demonstrated the value of that option.
I have an aunt who never married, although she was engaged for a while in her younger life. Her fiance committed suicide, and there were hushed rumors that he struggled with homosexuality. He played the organ at our church, and I remember him as being quite talented, although a bit effeminate.
My aunt has never wanted to talk about it that I know of, and I don’t know how much this tragedy contributed to her own decision never to marry. But she certainly was and is still a blessing to me and to many others in her faith and her Christian service. She never appeared outwardly unhappy or that she felt she was less of a person because she was single.
I am sure it has to take a very special grace imparted by God to live a celibate life. That He does, indeed impart that grace, I feel certain of since I have seen (not lived) its genuine consequences.
October 15, 2009 at 10:58 am
Thanks for sharing Thom.
I would say that sexual acting out or expression has not been my focus as a problem, so many of us have our different ways of viewing our sexuality with keeping God in mind. I feel and believe sex is an ultimate connection with God as it is pure lack of mental thought at the moment of orgasm, leaving spirit in full control. Much like what I might consider heaven to be. So to not have that, would short me of an experience that could come closer to what God and heaven are, though I’m sure it is much more wondrous in heaven.
I had an insight about the Leviticus 22 in where it says, “men who lie with men as with woman, are an abomination”. I take that to mean married straight men who have sex on the side with boys or men, are abominations. The verse says “men who lie with men as with a woman” instead of ‘men who lie with men’ are an abomination. The point would have been taken without the mention of a woman, yet it did not cut the woman out of the picture. There was much of that going on in that area of the world at the time, and I believe it to be somewhat if not all adulterous, which was punishable by death at the time.
Either way, the sexual cultural war regarding the Bible is a very controversial issue and I certainly support where you are at in your life regarding your sexuality. I think we all have experiences for a reason. I try my best not to judge anyone’s experience, as I so know the downfall of the jail cell of judgment.
Just curious, have you had and do you have issues with pornography and/or promiscuity? I know this is personal and if you don’t want to share, it’s ok. Thanks again for sharing.
October 15, 2009 at 11:17 am
Kurt,
I can appreciate your insight regarding Leviticus, but I just don’t agree that it provides that wiggle room. I think it has to be regarding in the context of the Bible as a whole. Despite my struggle, I’ve just never questioned God’s intent. It always seemed very clear to me and I was thankful for His grace to help me with the areas of my life that seemed difficult to conform.
Regarding pornography and promiscuity. I don’t mind answering, as I have been very honest on my blog about my past. I never struggled with pornography, only with a need to connect, which became all to easy with the Internet. That lead to promiscuity. So, the first one, no . . . the second, yes. My actions hurt myself and others, including those I was willing to use for personal satisfaction. I have tested the limits of God’s forgiveness, and thankfully, remain.
Thom
October 15, 2009 at 12:53 pm
Well Karen you can certainly pose a question!
How do you feel about the fact that your same-sex attraction may not change? How does that affect the decisions you make for your life?
When I became a Christian, I instinctively believed that I would never be able to reconcile an active gay lifestyle with Christ. However I was willing to surrender that to Him. I asked for help in dealing with my sexuality but I never asked God to change my sexuality. Becoming a follower of Christ is recognising who God is and what He has done for us through Christ. Our duty to Him then should be to praise and worship Him with all our being and to be obedient to His commands. We are encouraged to ask God for anything but we should realise that this is subject to His will and purposes which often remain a mystery to us for the time being. We should not expect things from God – what right have we to do that?
If you do not affirm homosexuality, what would you say to these ex-ex-gays who have clearly put blood, sweat and tears into trying to do what they believed was right?
I think it comes down to where our focus remains. It has to be Christ and always Christ. In Philippians 3:13-14 Paul says, “…one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on towards the goal…”
Everyone has a cross to bear and all followers of Christ are the same in this respect. We have different burdens to bear but should not be in the business of comparing our own burdens with others. What’s tough for you may be easy for another and vice versa. Struggles are relative to different people. We cannot allow ourselves to think that being gay is harder to bear than anything else. If we do we make it harder for ourselves and may be apt to wallow in a ‘poor me’ philosophy.
How does change or lack of change in our life circumstances relate to Christian theology and the Christian life?
Change or lack thereof should not become our obsession. Instead we should, as Jesus instructed, “…love the Lord your God with all heart with all your soul and with all you mind…(and) love your neighbour as yourself.” Matt 22:37,39
We should strive to be outward looking and not introspective. Paul does say in Philppians 1:6, “And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”
That for me is a huge encouragement especially as it came from someone who was transformed from being a persecutor to a disciple but then had to suffer persecution and ill-health. We must endure.
Wishing God’s richest blessing to all who read this and struggle with the pain and difficulties related to their sexual orientation and their love for Christ.
October 15, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Thom,
Cool. I am wondering Thom; if we were t0 befriend each other, would you allow me and my partner in your home as overnight guests in your guest room, save getting a hotel, knowing that our beliefs about this subject are diametrically opposed?
I ask this as a query for collapsing the divide within the gay community Biblicaly and otherwise, and how it may be done.
October 15, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Hey Kurt,
That’s an interesting question. It’s important to recognize that while our views on this issue may be, as you say, diametrically opposed, I recognize you as a brother in Christ and would be honored to have you in my home, with your friend. However, I would expect that you, as my Christian brother, would respect my personal beliefs, and as a guest in my home, would not even ask to spend the night in a room with your partner out of concern that it might offend me or perhaps, heaven forbid, even cause me to stumble. That said, to keep everyone in line with their beliefs on this issue, the hotel after dinner is probably the better option.
Now . . . does that sound judgmental? I hope not. I, as much as you, would like to see division dismantled, and I pray for that because I have seen so many people hurt beyond reason, as if the pendulum of civilization hung upon the same-sex issue. It doesn’t. We all need to accept Christ, devote ourselves to the best understanding we can obtain of the Word of God, yield in every way possible to the Holy Spirit and live as best we can in a fallen world where Satan still comes to kill, steal, destroy and deceive. That means we’re not all going to agree on everything . . . but the Holy Spirit can work that out, and, my thoughts are that He may continue to do so in you. In the meantime, we have a mandate to exhibit, as best we can, the fruit of the spirit.
So . . . we would need to love each other, honor God the way we each in our hearts believe we have been called to do, and cherish the chance to be friends . . . and do no harm if at all possible, trying to keep each other from it.
Perhaps worth mentioning: if an unwed heterosexual couple — good friends of mine — were to come to my home, they would not be staying in the guest room together either.
I don’t know where you live, but we do have a big house.
Thom
October 15, 2009 at 2:21 pm
Very good. Your response made me smile so I did not feel judged. I can see how some people may feel judged, as I would have a while back.
I think in the case you provided, if we were to be at your home and this came up, I would smile and not depart from Christ, my loving self, and detour into fear and judgment.
And then I might ask myself, “if Thom was totally grounded in his faith, and believed in the David and Goliath story, maybe he could turn us celibate just by being in his domain and ministering”.
But it does bring up the question, why do you feel you might stumble and I do not feel I would stumble at all?
It would seem that if you were totally correct in your position, stumbling would not be a possibility, because our wiring would naturally be such that stumbling would be impossible.
October 15, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Kurt,
Thank you for that response. It really means a lot to me.
Stumbling is what we have been doing since the Fall. I think sometimes when we think we are above the possibility of stumbling, we might be exhibiting just a bit of pride.
While you might disagree on this point, I believe that some of the things that happened in my early life did confuse the wiring a bit. I am certainly aware that I am still, and maybe always will be, tempted to some degree. But I believe I have made the choice that is in alignment with God’s design for me and the plans He has for me. As such, I need to be aware that, as I can still be tempted, I need to remain on guard.
I was probably being a little facetious in the earlier statement. It is not likely I would stumble were you and your friend sleeping down the hall. You, of course, would have already stumbled, by my perception . . . but that gets back to the diametrical opposition thing.
As far as David and Goliath? Well, we certainly continue to face giants in our lives and I am thankful for the story and the truth it provides that we can do all things, but not on our own and not by our own choice.
It is interesting that you would even entertain the possibility that someone totally grounded in his faith might be able to convince you to consider celibacy.
Thom
October 15, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Thom,
Good reply and thanks for your response. I do have some interesting things that do come to mind.
You say;
“It is interesting that you would even entertain the possibility that someone totally grounded in his faith might be able to convince you to consider celibacy.”
I didn’t mean it from my court, but from yours, that you could have the chance to do such by having us in your midst. Hence David and Goliath and you doing what you may do to have us see our evil ways, repent, and go sleep in separate rooms.
With me it wouldn’t be a possibility because I am totally grounded in my position and my faith that God wants me where I’m at. For me to stumble would mean I would consider celibacy, which has never happened.
My query about stumbling, is that I have no “stumbling” programming in my sexuality, yet those who go celibate do.
Which brings up the question; If God made gay people to be celibate, why would he give them a sex drive at all? It would seem a bit of a bad joke in a sense, as str8 people do not have that issue at all. They are attracted to each other and that is fine, however, we are attracted to each other and it is not fine, in God’s eyes some believe.
Why do you think it is not our natural drive from birth, to be celibate and have no ssa at all? Or is this one of those great mysteries we won’t know until another time?
October 15, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Thom, bless you, my brother. It is an honor and a privilege to “run the race” with you. May God help us both not to stumble, all the way to the finish line!
October 15, 2009 at 3:54 pm
Kurt,
I want to give some good attention to your question, but I am headed out for the evening and only have a moment. In the meantime, someone else may pick it up. If not, I’ll definitely do so in the morning.
I realize that you’re coming from the viewpoint that people are born “gay.” My viewpoint differs, so I’ll have to deal with that in the morning.
I have to hand it to you saying that you are beyond stumbling. That’s pretty bold. However, if God were to open your eyes to new thoughts, a change would not be a stumble, would it?
Thom
October 15, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Debbie,
Thank you so much. I have learned a great deal from following your comments on this and other blogs, including your own. God does give grace to the humble, doesn’t he?
Thom
October 15, 2009 at 3:56 pm
“My query about stumbling, is that I have no “stumbling” programming in my sexuality, yet those who go celibate do.”
Kurt, everybody has the stumbling program built in. None of us is above temptation in any fashion, especially sexual temptation. I don’t think you really meant that to come out as it did. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
October 15, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Debbie,
You are so right, I can see how that came out confused. I was making an analogy just with mock celibacy as a goal in mind. I think Thom got it the way I meant.
My potential “stumbling” block is like any other couple, str8 or gay, by having an adulterous-like relationship outside my monogamous marriage with my partner Jared.
For men, because we are wired a bit differently than women regarding sex, it is a definite potential stumbling block in general.
Regardless, I hope this clears this confusion up Debbie.
Thom,
I don’t take my statement as bold, it’s more just factual for me, as it would be as odd for me to go celibate for life, as it would for any str8 happily married guy with his natural sexual gifts fully intact and operable. I would find it quite unnatural and worth a chuckle to even ponder. It would be for me, like a str8 guy pondering becoming gay though he had no sexual attraction for guys at all. So far out in left field from how I am wired, I surely would never find the ball.
I’m wondering, what kind of “new thoughts” do you think God might send to guys who are in my position?
I look forward to your comment tomorrow as I find your views interesting for me, the curious cat.
October 15, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Thom and Kurt,
I have appreciated reading your dialogue, it is so refreshing to see two people who disagree have a dialogue that doesn’t reduce to name calling and tit-for-tats. Thank you, both, for it.
While I look forward to reading what Thom says in regard to your question, Kurt, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful or intruding if I offer my two cents as well, as this is a question that I (as well as many others who experience SSA I’m guessing) have asked themselves or God at one point or another in their lives.
I am of the opinion that homosexuality is something many (including myself), but not all, are born with. Given that, I see God giving me a sex drive because it allows me to intentionally and purposefully honor him in a huge and consistent way. So many people pray to God to know what his will is in their lives, about big things and little things. Well, when it comes to my sexuality, God has made it plain to me what his will is- celibacy. I would be lying if I said I didn’t sometimes think of it as a cruel joke (just ask Jay, he has seen the worst of it from me) to be given these desires but told I should not act on them, but a better way (as I see it) to look at it is by realizing that God has seen me as metal worth testing, as a man worth refining, and by giving me a powerful measure of his refining discipline (cf. Hebrews 12). It isn’t a joke he is playing on me, but rather is his demonstration to the universe that I am worthy of suffering for the sake of Jesus’ name- one of the highest honors a Christian can receive (cf. Acts 5:41, Phil 3:10-11, 1 Pet 4:13,19).
As for those who are straight- they don’t get a pass. Some of them are called to celibacy, and they share in the same honor that everyone who has SSA has been extended. For me, when I am thinking clearly, I see my homosexuality as a clarifier: God has removed every obstacle in my path that would keep me from knowing his will when it comes to sex and long-term relationships- abstain. Is that hard? As you all know, it is suicidally hard sometimes (often-times). But is it worth it? Yes- absolutely. “For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed in us.” (Rom 8:18, my translation).
Again, these are just my $.02. I look forward to what Thom (and others) have to say. Sorry for the intrusion.
-SC
October 15, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Semper,
Please do comment and “intrude”. I appreciate your insights. I am trying to get to understand my fellow gay celibate Christian more through talking and it is really good to have a venue such as this to do it in.
My reason truly for being here and discussing, is to understand from my own point of view, what makes someone tick who takes this vow of celibacy and is gay. It haunts me only in that I have such a deep connection to the priest hood that I am sure I was one in past lives, which I do hold as part of my history. There is just too much comraderie not to have it in my genetic genes somewhere.
I also had a great deal of anger at religion for the attacks I feel as a gay person in this cultural war, and it has been helpful for me to discuss and resolve. I was one of those people that would reduce in conversation, not so much w name calling, but enough negative interaction that the conversation would end. I am finding that is gone now speaking here, so I have actually reached my goal of releasing my fears of being attacked by heavy right wing attitudes, and I am proud of myself for doing such.
Though I understand your ideas regarding why you are asked to be gay celibate yet still have a sex drive that must be put asunder, it still seems it is truly a hard road. I see so many things in my life that are difficult yet they make sense and are manageable. If I were to add celibacy and stumbling to the mix, I’m sure it would be just so much harder to deal with life. And I would not do it as it isn’t my path.
My path is to hold the light of God and Christ within my love for humanity, Jared and my country with full body passion and zeal fully functional.
I truly did lose sight of God in my “struggle” with homo to hetero stuff. And that all broke lose when I finally pulled out of the gutter on that.
But I do believe we are meant to live full rich lives and not struggle all the time, so I guess that is what I hear may be happening for some of my celibate bros and sis’s. I hear all the difficulty and say to myself, Why? Why is there so much hurting here?
Sometimes I think there is such heavy residue from past lives as priests or ministers, that maybe such is playing out with some. Then I think that maybe it’s because most have been taught from birth that they are bad defective broken or just plain not wanted, and they do their best to “fit in” by keeping it in their pants. Or they have been sexually abused and all sex is just a big confusion and best just left alone, and that some don’t know it as they have sublimated the abuse. And I also get there is a devotion for some to Christ around it, but for some it may be empty words to cover up other reasons such as I have mentioned. Do any of these things play out in your decision to be celibate?
It would be great to have your input. I actually think all this is worth of a documentary, to help people understand just where some gay people are coming from and what spurs them on to lead lives of celibacy, from a core level viewpoint. I would imagine there must be many many reasons.
October 15, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Wow, lots of great discussion and comments. I had to go back to Karen’s original questions so I opted to copy and paste two of them here;
“How do you feel about the fact that your same-sex attraction may not change? How does that affect the decisions you make for your life?”
I had to come to terms with this question last year after a decade of intense struggle, debating, counseling, ex-gay therapy, etc. However I was one of those who knew at a very young age that I was attracted to the same sex and even then I sensed there was something not right about it even though I had never heard anyone tell me so. I also was not raised in a christian home so there were no religious hang ups or indications that this should not be.
When I realized last year that most likely I would be dealing with this for the rest of my life I gave brief thought to giving in. Then I swung back to, ‘no, not what God desires for my life’ only to swing back this summer to the closest I have ever come to allowing myself to go forward with it. Even to the point of visiting some gay bars, looking at gay personals, and hanging out with friends who had given up the fight. And at that point, it literally consumed me- couldn’t stop thinking about it and just wanted to get on with it. But no matter how much I gave myself permission or justification, I was, and am still unable to find the inner peace with God if I chose to go down this road. In fact, one of my friends, who is now in a same sex relationship, worried that she may be responsible for tempting me to go against my convictions. My only response to her was that she greatly underestimated how important peace with God is for me. The best way I can describe it is how I felt afterwards, although I never acted out with anyone, I knew deep down that I did not have the same peace that I normally experienced when I knew I was walking in obedience to the Lord. For me personally, even though I read stories of fellow christians who have been able to find peace with God within a same sex relationship, this has not been the case for me. Unless this changes, I do not see myself ever co-exisiting in a same sex relationship. I believe in order for me to do so, I would literally have to toss my peace with God ‘out the door’ which I’m not willing to do for anything or anyone. He has been way too faithful and providential over the years to believe anything less. This is not to say that I haven’t experienced great loneliness and temptation at times. For me it comes down to whether or not I am going to trust Him to be sufficient for what I really need or to follow my own often misguided ideas about what I think I really need.
“If you do not affirm homosexuality, what would you say to these ex-ex-gays who have clearly put blood, sweat and tears into trying to do what they believed was right?”
All I think we can do is share our own experiences/stories honestly and respect the experiences/stories of others even if we don’t necessarily agree or see eye to eye on certain issues. We will all have to stand one day before the Lord and give an account of everything we have said or done and we will be rewarded according to our faithfulness. According to I Corinthians 3, each man’s foundation will be tested for quality depending on what we choose to construct it with; gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, or straw? I want my foundation to survive the test of fire and to do more than ‘just escape the flames’ (I am in no way implying that people go to hell for homosexual behavior). I believe the best way I know how to do this is to continually walk in obedience to what I believe scripture says about how I should live my life, particularly in the area of sexuality. But I also believe this principle applies to many areas of our lives. I do believe that there is blessings in this life and the after life for obedience to His Word.
October 15, 2009 at 11:10 pm
@Karen: “…My own life became consumed with it as well. Until I stopped trying to change. I would be curious if people have thoughts on this point. And if there is something within ex-gay ministry that could be shifted to help remedy this problem? Or perhaps some do not see it as a problem? Any thoughts?…”
I think I understand what you mean that you stopped trying to change. Is that similar to ‘letting go and letting God’?
I’m not sure how ex-gay ministries could shift their focus to avoid participants’ lives from being consumed by the struggle to change. It seems they would have to drastically redefine their ministries. Ex-gay programs are about characterizing homosexuality as the result of life deficiencies, so, understandably, participants seek change to overcome the many deficiencies that supposedly contributed to their homosexuality.
If one really believes their SSA is rooted in “sexual brokenness”, bad parenting, insufficient gender bonding, abuse, sin, etc., etc., then I can’t imagine anyone deciding to stop trying to change and accept their deficiencies. While gay-to-straight change may not be all ex-gay participants’ goal, I think most ex-gay participants seek self improvement and to leave the ex-gay programs in better shape than they entered.
I appreciate Courage as Saul described that ministry. It seems Courage’s is more about coping with on-going homosexuality. In contrast, ex-gay ministries are more about using therapy to overcome and leave homosexuality. I’m also curious if Courage members struggle with the disappointment of not changing.
October 16, 2009 at 12:04 am
Amazing Grace,
Thanks so much for sharing.
My experience as a small child was that I knew I was gay by 4 years old, but that was all. It came with no right or wrong, it just was. As gay people we all grow up with str8 role models, which bodes my curiosity in your case.
I would be interested to know if you ever found out the basic belief about ssa, as you say you knew there was “something not right about it” as a small child. What do you think caused that assertion at the onset of knowing you were gay?
October 16, 2009 at 5:33 am
“My reason truly for being here and discussing, is to understand from my own point of view, what makes someone tick who takes this vow of celibacy and is gay. It haunts me only in that I have such a deep connection to the priest hood that I am sure I was one in past lives, which I do hold as part of my history.”
Wow, Kurt. I think you caught me and some others off-guard with that statement in response to Semper’s comments. Not sure how to even address it other than to say it must be pretty daunting to reconcile that belief with Christianity.
I truly appreciate what Semper is saying about the plane of suffering in one’s life and God’s higher purpose for it. I came to understand it from a deeply personal perspective when I battled deep depression — my “dark night of the soul.” The Beatitudes, which open Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, also drive it home, I think. “Blessed are those who are poor in spirit (aware of their utter poverty apart from God) … blessed are those who mourn … who hunger and thirst for righteousness … who are pure in heart.”
Anytime we ignore what suffering is meant to accomplish in our lives and seek to placate it, we miss the miracle God may be seeking to do for and through us, I believe. To be refined by those testing fires is a hard thing, but it carries the reward that Jesus also spoke of in his great sermon.
Thanks, Amazing Grace, for your perspective on what peace with God has been in your life. I know (I presume all commenting here do) the all-consuming passion that overtakes us when we begin going down the road of self-fulfillment instead of God-fulfillment. It was the most frightening place I have ever been in my life. When I look back on those days, I am truly in awe of what God did and how He loved me enough to pursue me. Yes, the “hound of heaven” came after me. I could have rejected Him and gone on rebelling, but I didn’t. I didn’t do it by myself, of course. A real turning point was the wee hours of one morning when my husband and I got out of bed and knelt at a makeshift altar in our home to cry out in unison before God.
I interact from time to time with gay Christians who seem to have found peace in their relationships. I seek to understand them and certainly not to condemn them. I don’t know the depth of their personal relationships with Christ and whether or not they are operating on the transference principle (attributing to God their personal theology). Their testimonies do make it tougher for those of us who are involved in ministry outreach to strugglers, however.
Right now in my SSA group I have one woman who is really wrestling with the “why can’t I just give in” question. The rest of the group are clearly in agreement that she ought not give in, and we are there for her in a nonjudgmental way, but also continue restating our own testimonies of the pain we encountered by giving in.
This kind of dialogue is highly valuable, and I thank Karen for facilitating it.
And that documentary Kurt says needs making? I totally agree. That would be an awesome undertaking.
October 16, 2009 at 5:47 am
Kurt,
Thank you for welcoming my voice in your conversation- I am glad for the opportunity to join this dialogue.
While I am sure there are some out there who choose celibacy because of fear, abuse, etc., I am not one of them. To be sure, I am confident that if my family found out I was gay (I am still in the closet), I would be largely disowned and scorned, but my decision to be, and remain celibate does not come from that. Instead, it comes from my relationship with God. When I first began experiencing homosexual attractions, about age 12, I realized I had a choice to make- embrace them, rejecting the faith of my fathers, or reject them, embracing the faith of my fathers. It was that clear to me; there was no middle ground. I chose the latter. Since then, I have reconsidered many times (it seems like every four years or so, now that I think about it), because of the pain, difficulty, and loneliness involved, but still believe I have made the right choice.
If I am going to be honest, there is some fear on my part about turning away from celibacy, but perhaps not the kind of fear you have been writing of. Rather, I fear that if I pursued a homosexual relationship, I would be losing something that I have invested so much in: my relationship with God. I do not see the two as compatible, and so it has to be one or the other. You are absolutely right, though, that it is hard, and it is a long-haul hardship- one that lasts for an entire life (presumably). But I don’t think that because celibacy is so hard that it should be neglected. In fact, when I think clearly about it, I see it as an honor, as I said, that I am considered worthy of suffering for the sake of my God.
I want to be very honest, though, and admit that when I see gay couples around town, when I meet with my gay friends (who don’t know I am gay, btw), and see them enjoying each other’s lives and companionship, I do get envious of them, but feel that at the end of the day for me to do that would to be putting aside my relationship with God. Like Amazing Grace said, I just couldn’t do that, as hard as the struggle is.
I would love to see a documentary about this subject, I agree that the “celibate voice” is probably not heard very often.
If I can be so bold, Kurt, can I ask your opinion regarding 1 Peter 4:12-19 and Hebrews 12:1-12? Aren’t we all called to difficult lives, ones that don’t get easier, but harder, as life goes on?
-SC
October 16, 2009 at 7:32 am
Good Morning,
I had a great time last night in my group meeting with men who struggle with various types of sexual brokenness, as we studied Living Waters. You guys carried on with some great and insightful comments here. It’s amazing how constructive a conversation when the harsh judgment is replaced with honest searching.
As I said I would do yesterday, I wanted to offer a little longer answer to the question Kurt posed to me. Kurt asked:
“If God made gay people to be celibate, why would he give them a sex drive at all? It would seem a bit of a bad joke in a sense, as str8 people do not have that issue at all. They are attracted to each other and that is fine, however, we are attracted to each other and it is not fine, in God’s eyes some believe.
Why do you think it is not our natural drive from birth, to be celibate and have no SSA at all? Or is this one of those great mysteries we won’t know until another time?”
I think you have to begin by looking at your first word: “if,” and go from there. God gave us the awesome gift of a free will and the awesome responsibility that comes with it. As He says in Jeremiah, He has plans for us, but He doesn’t make us choose them.
I don’t believe, as you might, that “God made gay people.” I believe God made us all in His image — man and woman, imago dei — to reflect His creation. A significant reflection of His creation is the gift of sexuality, as expressed when two become one.
Celibacy is among the many choices we have regarding sexuality. It doesn’t replace or remove the sex drive. It is a personal choice of ow we manage it and it comes out our free will, whether it is based on a determination that lines up with God’s will or not. It would not be consistent for God to provide some of us with a sex drive and others not, pre-determining which of would be celibate, thus taking that out of the free will and removing something that we might use to glorify Him. Celibacy would have little meaning if it were not a choice . . . for those who choose it.
It is often said that God has a sense of humor, but not usually in relation to bad jokes. The fact that we are attracted to people of the same sex is a struggle, not a prank. It’s something to be brought to God, not laughed over bitterly.
As to your thought that the issue of celibacy appeals only to those with SSA, I disagree. In my group last night — composed this year of married men only — are several who struggle with same-sex attraction, but others whose lives are hampered by sexual brokenness that is not SSA. Some of the men in the group suffer from heterosexual sex addiction, sexual idolatry, addiction to pornography, relational brokenness, uncontrolled masturbation. These men are not attracted to men . . . but there are probably times when they too think their entire sexuality is a joke . . . and they may wish they too had chosen celibacy. We make a mistake when we too-highly elevate the SSA issue. Sexual attraction outside of SSA has also been corrupted. Interestingly, these “straight” men usually are quite comfortable sitting in a group and discussing the sexual brokenness issues we all face, regardless of orientation. Our desire, as Christians, needs to be to honor and glorify God with our whole being.
In this thread, various people have revealed their desire to do so in different ways. “Amazing Grace” has chosen celibacy and says he believes at this time in His life that choice honors God. You have chosen to be gay and say you believe at this time that you are honoring God. I chose at one time to construct a double life and lived it well . . . dishonoring God. In making these choices, we all exercise His gift of our free will. Fortunately for me, God’s gifts of grace and forgiveness were powerful enough to overcome my reckless use of the free will.
As we mature in our knowledge and wisdom of Him, sometimes we change our ways of dealing with the desires and temptations that are ever present in our lives. This maturity is not an age thing; it is a purposeful knowing of God. So, because of our free will, our decisions are not cut into stone. Amazing Grace may not always be celibate. You, Kurt, may not always live a gay lifestyle.
Many people still wander and wonder and hope and seek. Some just float along, culture-driven. Those of us who are grappling need to reflect as best we can the fact that life is not as gray as “the world,” would like to portray it. Some things really are black-and-white. God makes it a little easier than we might think if we are willing to start there and then exercise that free will rather than exercising first and analyzing the impact later.
Which brings us back the the name of this blog: “Pursue God.” When we do that, He does reveal some of the mysteries. Not all, of course. Some of the best things always come at the end of the journey.
Thom
October 16, 2009 at 8:28 am
@theformers: “…I don’t know the depth of their personal relationships with Christ and whether or not they are operating on the transference principle (attributing to God their personal theology). Their testimonies do make it tougher for those of us who are involved in ministry outreach to strugglers, however. …”
This is probably off-topic to the thread’s main discussion, but can you expand on what you mean by transference? I suspect any religious faith could be accused of some form of transference since we all tend to form God based on our own image, culture, and experience.
How do gay Christian testimonies make it harder for you to conduct outreach to strugglers? Is merely sharing our experience and faith an obstacle? (May be I’m reading too much into your comment.) There are many ex-gay religious conservatives that I disagree with, but I don’t see their testimonies as making my faith tougher.
“…The rest of the group are clearly in agreement that she ought not give in, and we are there for her in a nonjudgmental way, but also continue restating our own testimonies of the pain we encountered by giving in….”
So, if your group is being nonjudgmental, then wouldn’t your group concede the possibility that she may not experience pain if she accepts a gay identity? Isn’t your group using members’ testimonies as subtlety-veiled scare tactics?
Similarly, when I expressed a desire to accept a gay identity, the ex-gay ministry would warn me of about others who have left the ex-gay ministry only to return with HIV, STDs, sexual addiction, even drug abuse, and directionless/immoral lives. Thankfully, I can say that ten years after leaving the ex-gay lifestyle, none of the ex-gay horror stories have become true and most LGBTs I know do not need lead the painful lives as described by ex-gays.
October 16, 2009 at 8:30 am
Semper,
I take Hebrews and Paul to mean any departure into darkness is sin, whether it is through an action or a thought, and the punishment and discipline of God is being in the darkness itself. A celibate person in my perception, does not have to go have physical sex to take that detour, just think a sexual thought and bam, they are in “hell” so to speak. And have the dirty job of climbing out.
This condition of thought detour however, is epidemic as any person who has a myriad of insecurities will attest. To tall too short, too tan, too skinny, not pretty enough, overbuilt underbuilt, do I measure up etc. Then they go into self recrimination, worry depression etc. It happens on a daily consistent basis with many people, whether it’s sexuality or bad genes, it’s kinda like, pick your poison. That is the suffering I think we all do and learn from.
So if I do something that causes me to lie cheat or steal something in myself or another, then I will feel the discipline and punishment of God simply by doing that act. There is no waiting for “judgment day” I’m already in “hell” in my mind.
I have somehow “rebuked” myself, and in that, I must find a way to crawl out of the despair and “depression”, come off the cross, and rise again, into peace love and joy.
So my interpretation of “suffering for God” has more to do with learning how NOT to fall into the conditions of darkness in my life, and when I stay out of those conditions, I get to be with God in the moment, loving myself God and others around me without despair and depression (hell Satan etc) being my home.
My take is when you see any couple laughing and enjoying themselves, they are in God’s home of joy, and that is why they are so attractive to people. Love attracts, it always will as it’s God’s trumpet to look and be what God is, as we are all made in his image and should always try to keep that in mind and express His joy.
I don’t consider homosexuality or it’s accompanying behaviors to be a detour into darkness or sin, so I therefore do not share the same darkness some do. However, if a father has sex with a son or daughter, I can go into darkness in that very second just thinking about it. I have many places I have to scour out to let Christ light up my life, don’t get me wrong, but I do not believe suffering is the goal, but part of the path to realizing our Christic nature.
Loving is the goal in my book, and fear/struggle is the teacher. The key for me, was to realize what my fears and struggles were, analyze them and pluck them from my life so as to know God better. I still do that and I will until my dying day. That is how I will suffer to greatness if you will. No one escapes suffering, but few know how to resolve it.
Unlike you, I didn’t have a faith card to bargain with when making my decision to be my innate nature of gay. I think that made it easier for me, but then many don’t have issues around faith, but still have great issues around being gay. So it’s a bit of a big mish mash. Fear is fear I guess, and I simply refused at one point in my life, to allow fear to run my sex love and relationships, and it worked. My heart is full. God is with me in that area. And it’s a big area as I am a sexual being and needed to reconcile being sexual and spiritual together as compatable.
Debbie,
I think the poor in spirit, who mourn, who hunger, are all of us in different ways. We are all cut off from God to one degree or another. I think it is very difficult to suffer “consciously”, to “know thyself” in the moment in such conditions. My experience has been such. Then if I look at my suffering head on, and glean understanding from it and move past it, my suffering has been the greatest of God’s tools. However, if I stay in it, and grovel as if with pride that I am somehow doing God’s will to suffer for the sake of suffering, I don’t get that for myself. Suffering for me, is a tap on the shoulder, a red flag, that something needs addressing, and that suffering will be part of the lesson until the lesson is learned. And in THAT I grow from suffering, and have tempered my heart with love and knowledge of God’s will for me, to be the most loving helpful spirit I can for those that need there door opened out of darkness.
What good would it do for humanity if we were all on the floor knashing and weeping and suffering all the time? How rediculous that would be. Not only would we not get the bills paid, we would just be boring high maintenance dead weight carcasses. Been there f*** that.
October 16, 2009 at 9:07 am
Thom, you are so sneaky. (haha) I didn’t see you as I was writing then bam, I hit the submit button and there you are with a comment.
I will take your comment to breakfast and see what I come up with. I can already see we are again from opposite ends on a few things in your comment.
I have to thank you for allowing me to know myself better without negs and judgment of opposites getting in the way of communicating. I worked my a** off for about 2 years resolving religious attack issues. Now I see you as a brother in Christ and can smile instead of get angry, so I have “risen” out of the grave on this issue I had. It feels great. I am wondering, how are you doing with the opposites here, do you have negs come up or? Back soon.
October 16, 2009 at 9:08 am
“Then if I look at my suffering head on, and glean understanding from it and move past it, my suffering has been the greatest of God’s tools. However, if I stay in it, and grovel as if with pride that I am somehow doing God’s will to suffer for the sake of suffering, I don’t get that for myself.”
Very good point, Kurt. Suffering for the sake of suffering is man’s cruel invention (for the sake of an atonement that Christ already provided?) and certainly not God’s intent. Yes, we can suffer because we are unable to see or grasp something God wants to show us, and we may suffer because we do. Suffering is a means (for God’s purpose) and never an end.
As Oswald Chambers said, we can’t choose the scene of our own martyrdom. God uses people and circumstances we would never choose to help us see and put to death all that represents our ungodly right to ourselves. I think Chambers called it the “white funeral.”
October 16, 2009 at 9:11 am
Norm!,
I’m sure Debbie will drop in and explain her comments in a better way than I can. The reason I have found the testimonies of gay Christians to be encumbering in the ministry to the struggler is because of my belief that the Bible is clear about the sin of acting out on our homosexual temptations. I can’t compromise and say it is okay for some Christians and not for others. That would mean that if you can find a way to reason it out and find peace with yourself over it, then it must be okay with God. That would certainly be transference and a theology based on personal philosophy, not on God’s consistent Word in both Testaments.
Remember, we’re talking about those who say they struggle, not those who are embracing homosexuality. They want answers; they’re seeking to make the right decision for themselves.
Image, culture and experience do play a part in our view of God, but His Word is able to pierce through these influences. When we distort it, it is usually done so for personal comfort or gain.
I certainly believe we can share the disasters of our personal experiences as warnings to others we see traveling down a similar path. Personal experience is a good teacher, but common experience can save a lot of grief. The woman in Debbie’s group was there for a purpose. She would not have been there unless she was searching. To withhold any useful insight would have been uncaring. What the woman does with it is between her and God, but as the other women in the group pray, her heart may be open to the insight they provide.
Thom
October 16, 2009 at 9:11 am
I am enjoying reading the comments, and just have some general thoughts to throw out.
The issue of suffering: What is the point of it? Kurt writes: “My suffering has been the greatest of God’s tools. However, if I stay in it, and grovel as if with pride that I am somehow doing God’s will to suffer for the sake of suffering, I don’t get that for myself. Suffering for me, is a tap on the shoulder, a red flag, that something needs addressing, and that suffering will be part of the lesson until the lesson is learned.”
I think many people look at celibate gays and scratch their heads and think why? Why go through this kind of suffering. It seems very senseless to folk. I hear that in what Kurt is saying. What is the point of being celibate when you can have a committed, monogamous loving relationship? Isn’t that senseless suffering. Isn’t the pain telling you to let go of that unnecessary asceticism?
I agree with Norm that sometimes conservatives use scare tactics to say the “gay life” is pain-ridden. Personally, I never used drugs or was promiscuous. I never went to gay bars. My relationships with women were relatively stable. I enjoyed my relationships. The painful part was the Spirit in me grieving my sin–not anything external. I know many stable same-sex relationships.
We don’t turn from sin because it causes pain per se or we are going to get diseases, etc. We turn from it because we trust God’s best for us even when sin can be quite pleasurable.
I think there are different kinds of suffering. So Kurt seems to be referring to pain as a red flag. Its true, pain can be a red flag–so it hurts when we touch an iron so that we will stop touching the iron. However, I don’t think celibate gays are referring to that kind of suffering. Rather, it is suffering purposely endured for an outcome that is good. When Jesus felt the pain of the thorns in his head, he could have called a legion of angels to stop the pain. Yet he ignored that “red flag” because there was a mission and purpose in enduring the suffering rather than making it stop.
And the purpose was not for suffering itself–but for what that suffering would produce–life for all humanity. The bottom line for me is not the suffering. But the end result. God has our best interest in mind. He is wise, and knows the direction I should go in. And when he says, “don’t go in this direction,” I know it is for my ultimate well-being.
If circumstances happen to place me in suffering or inconvenience (since I don’t believe in seeking suffering for the sake of suffering itself), then I look to see how God will make lemonade out of lemons so to speak. For example, having same-sex attraction has made me more compassion toward other people. I came to understand God’s grace and love at a level deeper than I ever would have. I have grown in self-discipline and am not as easily greedy and self-indulgent. Etc Etc. Much good comes from our hardships. I do not choose hardship for that reason, but rather I can find joy and gratitude in the midst of it when life inevitably places me in difficult circumstances.
On another note with celibacy–I would not say I chose celibacy in the sense of making a vow of celibacy. It wasn’t a choice–it was circumstances that put it upon me (some straight people are also in this situation even though they would have liked to marry). I don’t have the “gift of celibacy.” I have not been “called to celibacy.” I have simply been called to be obedient to Christ, and that means honoring the sanctity of the sexual relationship and the boundaries God puts around it.
It comes down to whether we believe there are appropriate places and times to have sexual relationships. A married man may fall in love with someone outside his marriage; it could be someone he is much more compatible with than his current wife. It might be anguishing to say no to that extra-marital relationship. But, he endures that pain for a greater purpose. To consider that pain a “red flag” that he should give in and have the adulterous affair so as to ease the discomfort of self-restraint would actually be a betrayal.
October 16, 2009 at 9:13 am
Norm–just to clarify when I said I stopped trying to change I don’t mean “let go and let God.” I don’t care for that phrase and its never really made much sense to me.
I mean that I stopped trying to change. I no longer spent time evaluating why I might have those feelings and trying to fix them. I decided to focus my life on more important things.
October 16, 2009 at 9:29 am
Kurt,
What? Me sneaky? May it never be.
I look forward to your reply, and even to the day,my friend, when all the mysteries are resolved and we are on opposite ends no more.
As for whether these opposite viewpoints bring out negativity in me? No. Granted, there sometimes comes a point where one senses the need to fold the tent and move on, believing the information has been presented and leaving it to the Holy Spirit to convict the hearer. I sense that, despite your strong stance, you realize that this door needs to remain a bit open in recognition of the fact that so many Brothers and Sisters have a different perspective than you do. That you continue to explore is encouraging to me, as I truly care about you.
I am sorry that you have experienced a “religious” attack in the past. I have been there as well. The pursuit of truth is often engaged on a battlefield. In addition, we are often engaged in spiritual warfare, which leads us to seek the truth. Truthfully, if Christians consistently approached others out of love, as we are commanded, we would find the battlefield less littered.
Thom
October 16, 2009 at 9:40 am
I look forward to picking up less litter from the battlefield, and plucking more litter from God’s souls, so as to need battlefields no more.
October 16, 2009 at 9:51 am
That’s a desire we can comfortably share. Still, we need to keep the armor on and do battle for those who grow weary in the pursuit.
October 16, 2009 at 10:32 am
Karen, excellent response!!!! I love how your brain thinks and reasons- that is a very admirable quality that I really like and appreciate about you! Thanks again for a great blog!
October 16, 2009 at 11:21 am
Norm, I am generally careful not to use terms that have a psychoanalytic connotation. I probably ought to have left the transference reference out. I am not a professional counselor, by the way. LOL. I’ve probably read too many books.
One of the classic definitions of transference is the unconscious redirection of feelings for one person to another. It can happen in the counselor/counselee stetting. I meant it in the sense that, as God is our Counselor (via the Holy Spirit), we may sometimes transfer our affirmation from others to Him. We mean it/seek it in a positive sense. We have a deep inner need to be understood and accepted. And nobody does that like God does. But He does not affirm everything about us in the way we might desire for Him to.
My belief, as you are aware of by now, is that same-sex “conjugal” intimacy is not part of God’s plan. I arrived at that belief through a careful reading of Scripture, and in the course of my own relationship with Christ, soaking in many quiet moments of meditation on God’s Word, seeking to know His will for me personally, and the human race, corporately.
Because of what God has revealed to me and because of my own past experiences (learning the hard way), I can represent His plan to the women in my group in a loving, even motherly way, without condemning. The woman I spoke of already knows in her heart that God doesn’t want a gay-affirmed life for her. She has said that repeatedly. But I know the process she is going through right now. There is still that deep longing, that questioning of why not.
The testimonies of gay Christians, as Thom agrees, makes her journey that much harder because it casts doubt for her and may encourage her to stumble. And there are specific scriptural injunctions against that.
Karen, I am well aware there are stable gay relationships. I decry scare tactics. They are self-defeating and unnecessary. The best relationship on the planet that is outside of God’s stated purpose is still, well, outside of God’s stated purpose. And that is not a good place to be.
Do we seek to please man rather than God? Do we enthrone sexuality where God is supposed to be? Yes, we do all too often.
God wants to produce lasting fruit through us. There is plenty of fruit in the world that looks good until we see it up closer. I would rather disciple a struggler in such a way that he/she does not have to experience the bad fruit. But I also know some will only learn by going through the tough stuff.
October 16, 2009 at 11:49 am
Hi Thom: “…That would certainly be transference and a theology based on personal philosophy, not on God’s consistent Word in both Testaments.”
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. The fundamentalist doctrine that the Hebrew Bible and New Testament are consistent is a theology based on personal philosophy.
I’m still not sure how transference applies.
“…Remember, we’re talking about those who say they struggle, not those who are embracing homosexuality. They want answers; they’re seeking to make the right decision for themselves….”
I disagree that anyone struggling in an ex-gay or conservative religious ministry is absolutely committed to sacrificing their homosexuality. In my limited, bias experience, most people who struggle eventually conclude to accept their homosexuality. I suspect strugglers in ex-gay ministries are more often in a grey area between sacrificing versus accepting a gay-affirming identity and are at an ex-gay ministry because they see no alternative place to go.
“…The woman in Debbie’s group was there for a purpose. She would not have been there unless she was searching. To withhold any useful insight would have been uncaring. What the woman does with it is between her and God, but as the other women in the group pray, her heart may be open to the insight they provide.”
So if the woman questions or disagrees with the others women’s insight, then her heart is closed?
@Karen: “…I think many people look at celibate gays and scratch their heads and think why? Why go through this kind of suffering. It seems very senseless to folk. I hear that in what Kurt is saying. What is the point of being celibate when you can have a committed, monogamous loving relationship? Isn’t that senseless suffering. Isn’t the pain telling you to let go of that unnecessary asceticism?….”
For the record, I don’t question those who choose abstinence for their religious belief. I believe all worthwhile religious philosophies call on us to make personal sacrifices. And while I may disagree with others’ theology regarding sexuality, I certainly recognize that faith compels many gay, straight, unmarried, and clergy persons to sacrifice their sexual life.
@Karen: “I mean that I stopped trying to change. I no longer spent time evaluating why I might have those feelings and trying to fix them. I decided to focus my life on more important things.”
I certainly relate as I also stopped trying to change and reassessed and refocused. (I think we’ve already shared in a prior thread our different journeys.)
I have to ask though, how did your experience with ex-gay ministries help or prevent you from not-trying-to-change? It seems some type of change is the whole point of ex-gay ministries (hence Exodus’ “Change Is Possible” ad campaign). And, again, as I mentioned in my prior comment, I can’t imagine going through an ex-gay program without expecting some type of change or self improvement. I’ve never bought the ex-gay notion that heterosexuality was merely an unanticipated side-effect of the ex-gay process. The numerous gay-to-straight testimonies and pschobabble about root causes and sexual wholeness would seem to lead ex-gay participants to expecting some type of tangible change.
Sometimes I wonder if my grandmother’s approach would be better than the ex-gay path. Like many in her generation, she did not believe in counseling or expressing deeply personal feelings (although her opinions changed toward the end of her life). Her advice regarding a hypothetical gay person at her church was that they just needed to stop thinking or talking about it, study the Bible, and pray.
Maybe there is a middle ground for conservative Christians between closet repression and seeking ex-gay change.
October 16, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Regarding Opposites: one usually does not struggle with night and day, nor black and white, men and women, rain and sun, less now with negroid and caucasian . . . Why is it then, in this world of opposites and duality, would we not have gay and str8, naturally? Does not that also fall into the inherent reality we live in called opposites, of which we must abide?
One would rarely judge harshly the night over the day, why would we judge str8 over gay? Isn’t that giving str8 unequal off balance treatment when they are, like gays, simply a product of the a dualistic environment?
If we were to call night evil and day good, are some not doing the same thing with str8 and gay? Should not all opposites in the end, simply be treated “as is”, without judgment of either extreme?
If night were considered evil as some consider gay sex, then we surely could not let the crickets “act out” their chatter at night, for they would then attest to the validity of “acting out” gay sex. Should we then spray the crickets with supression juice so they will shut up and not spread their evil doings?
I am at the end of a process of flat lining my internal fight with the opposites of right wing religious gay sexual suppression vs “you’re wrong, I’m fine just he way I am”. We are both right and both opposite. I think our acknowledging each others ok’ness w/o judgment is mandatory for ultimate peace on this issue and less battlefield.
To be honest, I can’t believe I just said that given my opposites fight circumstances, but I am now finding it to be true. I have to see the Christ in everyone no matter how polarized one might be on certain subjects so as not to fight anymore. Not easy man, not easy. But i think that has been my struggle, in seeing that both extremes are ok, so I can move on, God forbid, to my next struggle of opposites.
Maybe night and day, gay and str8 are not really opposites at all, but I have chosen to see them that way so as to create more separation and pain. Maybe the truth is, they are just the flowing way of this world, and that’s all.
October 16, 2009 at 12:31 pm
“So if the woman questions or disagrees with the others women’s insight, then her heart is closed?”
I am only concerned about the extent my women’s hearts are closed to God. I can only get so far into their heads and hearts. The group’s collective will is one thing; God’s is another. As we pray for and encourage one another, we can relax in knowing God is meeting us where we are. It is each individual’s choice as to how they will allow Him into the process.
Ultimately, some of the women in my group (present or future) may decide not to do the work. So be it. The Father is always there for the prodigal. They are there of their own accord, and “going straight” is not the focus. Allowing Christ to be the “lover of their souls” is.
I would just not worry about the whole transference concept. Too convoluted of a concept to focus on.
October 16, 2009 at 12:35 pm
Norm,
I guess we will have to disagree on whether the Old and New Testament are consistent. Jesus said He came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. As the centerpiece of the New Testament, and as the author of the entire Word of God, He certainly had the opportunity to point out inconsistencies.
Regarding what you admitted is your bias concerning people –like myself — who have participated in ex-gay ministries, you said “most people who struggle eventually conclude to accept their homosexuality,” and you “suspect strugglers in ex-gay ministries are more often in a gray area between sacrificing versus accepting a gay-affirming identity and are at an ex-gay ministry because they see no alternative place to go.”
I disagree, based on my personal experience and shared experiences with other strugglers over a number of years in the ex-gay ministry, principally as one who struggles. My experience tells me that many strugglers do not conclude to accept their homosexuality. While they may accept the reality of living with temptation, the process of self-discovery and self-yielding often leads to a clearer picture of the reasonable burden of living with the temptation, but not acting on it. As time passes and self-control grows, many people move away from the pull of homosexuality. We don’t always hear of these success stories because there is great relief to the struggler to be able to move into a life of freedom from unwanted same-sex attraction, being released from an unwanted identity.
As far as there being no alternative place to go, the opposite is true. It would have been an easier route for me personally to have declared myself a homosexual and migrated into the accepting and affirming gay community. The church and Christians have made it difficult for those who recognize their same-sex attraction as an unwanted weight to be able to share that burden. As a result, some people do run from the church to the gay community. That is not so much accepting themselves as who they are as it is abandoning themselves as who they could be. Again . . . we are talking about people who wanted to change.
I myself am committed to educating the church and Christians about Christ’s empowering message to love each other and bear each others’ burdens in that love. It has required me to be very open and public about my past and my own struggles, but that openness allows people to come in direct contact with their fears. I have experienced to the fullest degree — even the exercise of church discipline — the judgment that can be reckoned. This experience only makes me want to close the gap and call other Christians to fully express the love that Christ demonstrated.
Thom
October 16, 2009 at 12:46 pm
Kurt,
I would rather not bring the word “evil” into the discussion. I know a good number of gay men and women and “evil” is certainly not a word that comes to mind when I think of them. Nor is evil limited to any sexual orientation. When the word evil was applied to me, I knew it was wrong, but it still made me feel like I needed to throw myself off a cliff.
While I understand your analogy to a certain extent, this is not a night and day argument. We have a clear record on that. God created the night and the day and it was good. It is our actions as fallen humans that corrupts. Few things relax me better than a dark night in a tent, the noise of crickets accepted.
To justify all things good just because they are opposites would mean that all things are good. We know that is not true. Where would we stop?
While I can see your desire not to fight, I do think we have to be careful about just watering down our positions to the point of just accepting whatever we see in others, particularly if we have the heart of Christ. He saw clearly the frailties of people and responded to those with healing. For me to see someone that I think is in need and just shrug and say, “at least he is a Christian,” and just accept his plight, would be uncaring. Certainly, the log must come out of my own eye, but I can’t ignore the speck. I’d love you too much to not at least try, Kurt.
I’m going to be gone again for a few hours, so don’t think I ignored you if you reply. Our church is having a fall festival tonight and I’m going to torment children. (Don’t take that literally.)
Thom
October 16, 2009 at 1:21 pm
“I myself am committed to educating the church and Christians about Christ’s empowering message to love each other and bear each others’ burdens in that love. It has required me to be very open and public about my past and my own struggles, but that openness allows people to come in direct contact with their fears.”
Amen, Thom. That’s where I am.
October 16, 2009 at 1:42 pm
You guys are having some great conversation here. My perspective is a bit different, as a person who has always been attracted to both sexes. Thus, for me, not changing need not mean a life of celibacy. I’m sure this changed a lot of things for me. With regards to Karen’s questions:
1. How do you feel about the fact that your same-sex attraction may not change? How does that affect the decisions you make for your life?
I am quite OK with the idea of my same-sex attractions not changing. I have learned to manage them effectively and am not particularly ashamed of the fact that I have them, although I’m not generally “out” at this point. Because I’ve always had some OSA, it doesn’t greatly affect my decisions.
2. If you do not affirm homosexuality, what would you say to these ex-ex-gays who have clearly put blood, sweat and tears into trying to do what they believed was right?
With my understanding of Scripture, I cannot affirm their choices as correct. However, I would admit that I don’t fully know the extent of their struggles. I do think the church needs to do more to reach out to people with these struggles, and I think that may have contributed to their struggles.
4. How does change or lack of change in our life circumstances relate to Christian theology and the Christian life?
I don’t think God’s expectations change as a result of our life circumstances; however circumstances do sometimes reveal His will. A person who doesn’t have any opposite-sex attractions is probably wise to remain single.
I also have some difference in my experience with the ex-gay movement as compared to Norm! and others. Like many others, I tried to change my sexual orientation on the basis of the psychological theories of the ex-gay movement. I do think that at the beginning, changing my sexual feelings was a big motivation, and I did feel shame over having these feelings. However, I didn’t go to an ex-gay group. I learned about the ex-gay stuff mostly from the Internet, and my community was mostly straight guys where I did my undergrad. I did work with a counselor for a semester, and I did a lot of writing to process what I was going through.
Some of the theories I rejected fairly quickly. I knew that my relationship with my dad, while not perfect, was very good, better than that many of my straight friends had. Thus I couldn’t blame SSA on that at all. I did have issues relating to my male peers growing up (I got made fun of a lot in grade school, for instance.) I also didn’t really have any close relationships with other guys, and always kept things I was dealing with (both SSA and other stuff) to myself. I thought these were the cause of my SSA. I learned to have close relationships with other guys. I did try a few pick-up and intramural sports, and discovered to my surprise that I quite enjoyed them. I started my ex-gay experience feeling quite different and alienated from other guys, and that actually did change quite a bit for me. I also learned to overcome my shame over having SSA. With all these good things going on, I thought I was changing my sexual orientation, but I slowly realized that’s not what was actually happening. My raw sexual and emotional feelings aren’t greatly different, it’s just that my emotional desires for other guys are much more fufilled. But as a result of my experiences, I wasn’t ashamed of this fact but rather came to terms with it quite well. I have SSA, and probably always will, but that doesn’t dominate my life.
I am very glad I did what I did in terms of ex-gay experience. I healed in a lot of ways I needed healing, and I grew closer to God and fellow believers. I don’t feel that it ever dominated my life. Now a lot of the things I did (like intentionally relating to straight guys in close, but not romantic or sexual, ways) just come naturally to me. I don’t have to force myself, and these things don’t feel awkward or unnatural. So I’m no longer trying to change my sexual orientation, but my life has changed for the better as a result of what started as attempts to do so.
I think a lot of these issues are things that many people, whether they struggle with SSA or not, deal with. Some issues (gender self-image, peer relations) do seem to be somewhat more common among people who deal with SSA. Whether this is a cause or effect of SSA can be debated, and I don’t think it really matters. I think that it is good for people who have these issues to deal with them, not because it helps with SSA, but because it’s healthy to deal with them. I don’t think it is a good idea to assume someone has any particular issue just because they have SSA.
I actually see my SSA as a gift in the sense that it lead me to do what I needed to do to grow closer to God and closer in fellowship with others.
I am actually going to be out of town for the weekend and may not have reliable Internet connectivity, so it might be as late as Monday night before I have a chance to respond to anything.
October 16, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Karen,
Great to see you. I thought you may have allowed us to run amuck on your blog while you watched and smiled.
I think there are 2 forms of suffering, one unconscious and one conscious. You seem to have the latter as you seem to know the game and it’s players quite well, and have chosen to sharpen your insights with celibacy in a conscious fashion. I applaud you for this if that be true.
The unconscious type might be someone who was sexually abused as a child but has no recollection in their adult life. One of the traits of sexually abused children is later in life, it seems to unravel before their eyes for no apparent reason, hence an unconscious wound is the culprit. The lost and wtf feelings can be so overwhelming, they truly “no not what they do” until all the suffering is accomplished, and they can come out back on top of things.
These types can be lost so deeply in sexual confusion, ex-gay programs can seem like the only way to go, for some. Part of me has to concede to let them do their thing as they will. The other wants to work with those who want to resolve their confusion so as to make sane choices for their love and sex lives.
It does make me think however, what if there had been classes in school on love forgiveness compassion discipline judgment opposing opinions etc, instead of just the focus of numbers letters and spelling B’s. Would we not then have had the teaching, so as not to have produced a suffering circumstance with which to learn? Seems we unfortunately, have to learn the prior on the street so to speak, and from religious help which for some can be fleeting.
The “red flag” in my suffering model is only a monitoring device, not a ticket to “give in” to sexual disorder, whatever that may look like for any particular person and their circumstances.
I certainly do respect your path and the things you are finding. That is truly admirable.
Thom,
I don’t think I am “watering down” my position. My position is in fact, stronger as I feel relaxed and in charge of it, which is new for me and wholly fulfilling. What that gives me is the comfort of knowing, that no matter what someone says or does when attacking my sexuality, it now has little to know effect. I no longer am at effect of anti-gay hard core attacking Christians, gay or straight.
Instead of fighting, I can have civil conversation knowing that both extremes have their views, and I won’t knock myself off balance in the process. No wondering, no analysing, no anger, no apathy, no bargaining, no good/bad boy assertions, no struggle, it’s just flat, with no wavering. Now if someone physically tries to hurt me, of course then I would physically fight to save myself from harm. But the emotional has been handled, and that is a big win for me as my “struggle” is complete on the sexual homo hetero good / bad note. Now I am “in my power” on this issue, so to speak. Lesson learned.
In my model of opposites, I wasn’t justifying all things as “good”, but could be surmised as “as is, it is what it is” neither good or bad attached to it.
When we attach a good or bad position, then we can continue to go around and around about subjects such as this. I think an answer to both sides for asserting peace, is to not try to pull a speck or log out of each other’s eyes, but live our truth for ourselves and let everyone see it and make decisions for themselves. If someone wants healing, they can easily ask for it. We are after all, adults with good minds. To put homosexuals in the same grouping as murderers thieves and prostitutes, well . . . you get my drift. That takes study to understand what that really means and as it stands pretty much takes me out of the ball park of Biblical summary on gay sexuality. I’m just not playing that game.
The “evil” I was referring to was actually about gay sex. Sorry if that didn’t translate well. Does that change your input on that particular item?
Bottom line, one person will pick one way and one will pick another, that’s natural and that is what is happening here. Two sides to every story. Demo Repub, secular/religious. We cannot, nor will one ever, get around that, as Hitler learned, (we hope).
I have my joy being with my lover and serving God. You have your joys being celibate and serving God, and both bring learning. Trying to change each other’s views, even psychically, I believe is controlling and can create anger and judgment.
For me, sexuality and it’s expressions are just, “it is what it is” with no attachments of good or bad. I guess one would have to try that viewpoint to see how it feels as it actually can feel quite right and good if one does a mock up. Have you ever experienced what it would be like to have no good or bad attached to your sexuality or it’s expressions? I’ve been in your shoes, have you been in mine? ( I’m not trying to control you, I’m only curious. )
I just think we can get into trouble when we try to make two sides into one.
This is why I so appreciate this blog, as it seems to cater to several aspects of sexuality with little to no judgment.
October 16, 2009 at 2:59 pm
“It does make me think however, what if there had been classes in school on love forgiveness compassion discipline judgment opposing opinions etc, instead of just the focus of numbers letters and spelling B’s. Would we not then have had the teaching, so as not to have produced a suffering circumstance with which to learn?”
There are many “schools” in life — our homes and extended families, schools, churches or houses of worship, the streets. Seems the school of hard knocks has the most alumni.
I can claim lessons from all of them.
Children are not mentally and emotionally mature enough to catch all the lessons that would spare them pain later in life. Even as we mature, we still tend to rebel like the “heathen” we are. As you point out, Kurt, we also sometimes suffer at the hands of others. Sexual abuse is very poorly handled everywhere, and barely even acknowledged. That needs to change.
When I was growing up (I started school in 1960), we had some great role models in school who taught us much more than the Three Rs. I’m sure there are still lots of great teachers today. We have had a creeping moral relativism to compete with those messages ever since, however.
October 16, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Hi Debbie: “…One of the classic definitions of transference is the unconscious redirection of feelings for one person to another. It can happen in the counselor/counselee stetting. I meant it in the sense that, as God is our Counselor (via the Holy Spirit), we may sometimes transfer our affirmation from others to Him…”
Thank you for clarifying transference. It seems you used the Freudian term to discredit the faith of gay Christians. Obviously, we’ll have to agree to disagree, but I think conservative Christians are just as susceptible of transference of their personal faith to God as anyone.
“…Because of what God has revealed to me and because of my own past experiences (learning the hard way), I can represent His plan to the women in my group in a loving, even motherly way, without condemning. The woman I spoke of already knows in her heart that God doesn’t want a gay-affirmed life for her. She has said that repeatedly. But I know the process she is going through right now. There is still that deep longing, that questioning of why not….”
I’ll be the first to admit that I have no qualification to determine the proper use of psychotherapy terminology, but aren’t you encouraging transference and countertransference by taking a motherly role in this woman’s life and counseling her to uphold your belief of what God wants for her?
How can you say you know the process she is going through? You admit that you’re not a professional counselor and only have your experience, but on what basis can you apply your experience and faith to another person’s life? While you may share some common experiences, I would hope that you recognize that her experience and faith are ultimately different from yours and your role should be to empower her to find her own path.
(Since we’re tossing around psychobabble, I admit that I’m probably transferring my ex-gay counseling experience on to you. Sorry.)
@theformers: “I am only concerned about the extent my women’s hearts are closed to God. … It is each individual’s choice as to how they will allow Him into the process.
Ultimately, some of the women in my group (present or future) may decide not to do the work. So be it. The Father is always there for the prodigal…”
What I find disturbing is your tone that you are somehow more enlightened and discerning as to what God’s desire is than the women in your group. Referring to those who leave the ex-gay lifestyle as prodigal seems a bit judgmental (if not arrogant). Why not just wish them well and be glad God has led them on their own journey?
@Thom: “…I disagree, based on my personal experience and shared experiences with other strugglers over a number of years in the ex-gay ministry, principally as one who struggles. My experience tells me that many strugglers do not conclude to accept their homosexuality….”
I guess we can both play the numbers game. We each probably travel in different circles, so we’re more likely to encounter those who affirm our own viewpoint. I have noticed that many who do leave ex-gay ministries tend to do so quietly and don’t make a point to contact the ministry to announce their personal decision. Unfortunately, ex-gay ministries haven’t publically studied the impact of their ministries and the few known studies have had significant problems in their methodology.
“…As far as there being no alternative place to go, the opposite is true. It would have been an easier route for me personally to have declared myself a homosexual and migrated into the accepting and affirming gay community. The church and Christians have made it difficult for those who recognize their same-sex attraction as an unwanted weight to be able to share that burden. As a result, some people do run from the church to the gay community. That is not so much accepting themselves as who they are as it is abandoning themselves as who they could be. Again . . . we are talking about people who wanted to change…”
My point about there being no alternative is that for conservative Christians, there are few (if any) places to go to openly discuss their beliefs, doubts and questions. A gay conservative Christian is just as unlikely to seek a gay-affirming church as a s/he would be to seek a synagogue, mosque, or Scientology center. Logistically speaking, whatever the closest ex-gay ministry is often a conservative Christian’s only option. And, unfortunately based on your and Debbie’s comments, it seems anyone who attends an ex-gay group is assumed to be 100% committed to the group’s ideas about change.
October 16, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Kurt,
First of all, for clarification since this point may not have been clear enough in my earlier statements about having lived a double life: I am very definitely not celibate, nor did I ever really contemplate that as a choice. I am married to a woman and have children and have a satisfying sexual life with my wife. Celibacy at this point would not be a decision I could contemplate on my own, and would certainly not be very considerate.
You ask whether clarifying the word “evil” as being in regards to gay sex and not just being gay changes my position. Sex is evil when its purpose is to demean or demoralize another person, or to make an idol out of one or the other of the participants, or when it is forced on one person unwillingly to satisfy the needs of the other. That’s perversion. I consider gay sex to be a sin, even if it is a co-expression of presumed love between two people. It’s not evil; it’s wrong. Not everything wrong is evil, but it is damaging.
Christians do damaging things and homosexuality is just one of many things. Unfortunately, some people believe that there are certain things — homosexuality, for instance — that indicate a person is not a Christian. I don’t believe that and never have, as I know that many people become Christians long before puberty and the onset of sexual expression. I also know that I, as a Christian, have acted out homosexually. I know some Christians who are tempted with same-sex attraction have never acted out and I am glad for them. In my case, history is there. When we sin, we confess, repent and seek redemption. If we know in our hearts we are sinning and we continue to do so habitually, there is a problem and we need to examine our relationship to Christ. The issue of homosexuality leaves a lot of people with conflicts between their heads and their hearts.
For instance, Kurt, you said, “To put homosexuals in the same grouping as murderers, thieves and prostitutes, well . . . you get my drift. That takes study to understand what that really means and as it stands pretty much takes me out of the ball park of Biblical summary on gay sexuality. I’m just not playing that game.”
What you call a game, I would call truth, based on scripture. However, you listed only the most graphic of the sins in your game-comparison with homosexuality and neglected to mention things like drunkards and greedy folks. By only pairing homosexuality with murder, thievery and prostitution, you paint an inaccurate picture of what Paul was saying in his letter. I’ve included the whole verse here. What is pretty obvious is that he is making the case that all are sinners and all can be sanctified, including homosexual offenders. When you don’t include the whole list, you make it look like he is placing special condemnation on homosexual acting out. You are using scripture emotionally to support your decision to not play the game.
“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Everything is permissible for me —but not everything is beneficial.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-12.
Now, as to whether I have experienced having “bad” attached to my sexuality? As I mentioned earlier, church discipline was exercised against me and I ended up confessing my sin of homosexual acting out in a church service before about 350 people. Yes, I felt bad. I had never felt so judged, yet those who understood Christ’s intent for us to love one another came alongside and helped me even through that horrendous experience. I understand the pain you feel. I do not condone that kind of treatment and, as I have repeatedly said, I believe we are to love people and speak the truth lovingly so they will hear it instead of closing their ears to us.
Thom
October 16, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Debbie,
You are so right about the low knowledge and exposure of sex abuse. I do have to give it to Oprah though, she just did 2 weeks of intense programming on it which was very well done.
Thom,
Thanks for that update about your wife and children. I didn’t pick up on that.
One of my questions to you was if you had ever had your sexual self and expression be completely free from judgment, good or bad, and felt what that was like to feel total sexual freedom?
I know you have felt bad about your ssa, I’m just wondering if it has always been that way?
Are you attracted to guys and girls as a rule, or guys and only your wife or?
I’m kinda picking up you may have seen me as a young buck in the woods fraught with curiosity and possible “change” in his being. I’m sorry if I came off that way to you. My “curiosity” is strictly clinical, for lack of a better way to put it.
I am as grounded in my homosexuality and it’s full beautiful expression as any run of the mill hetero guy is with his. For me to take on any demonizing of any part of my sexuality would be one of the greatest offenses I could possibly do to myself. But that is me and only me. I demonize myself regularly for other things though so don’t think I’m not without such follies. I am!
I hate, hate, hate, the fact that I am frightened of speaking in front of people, just kills me and I have to do it for my first time next month. If there are anger and fear demons, I’ve got it all over that. It’s the number one fear IN THE WORLD. And I am going to out that fear from my being.
That’s the demon killer in me coming out, which I excel at when I put my mind to it. We should all be good demon killers one would hope.
Thom I have a question for you: I have another truth about homosexuality than you do, and they don’t match, at all. Can you accept whole heartedly, that there is another opposite gay “truth” in this world as worthy as yours, and still break bread together without judging or saving or anything else that may enter your mind?
October 16, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Hey Kurt,
I noticed your agreement with Debbie on the issue of sex abuse. No matter what the sex of the perpetrator or victim is, that crime is one of the worst imaginable and our culture has not dealt with it properly for generations. I was sexually abused and never forgot it and it caused me some significant issues, now healed. My greatest regret is that as an innocent child, I did nothing. The perpetrator probably went on to damage many others.
I didn’t really take you as a young buck fraught with curiosity or pondering change. You were pretty clear from the start, as was I. However, my desire, despite your grounding, would still be for you to change, because I desire what I believe is the better good for you. But I am not pounding away or turning away.
Yes, I have always felt bad about my SSA. I did not go through a period of living in the lifestyle, of self-acceptance as a gay man or anything like that. I always believed it was wrong for me, so there has not been a time when it was not a battle. My first experiences were in college with a roommate, also a Christian. We blamed each other and treated each other horribly over it. I still feel bad about that. He chose differently than I did.
Now, Kurt, I want to encourage you about your speaking opportunity coming up. I do a great deal of public speaking, to very large audiences. I used to be petrified. However, once I realized that they really did want to hear what I had to say . . . and once I determined to say something worth hearing, it was not so fearful. You’re just delivering a message. You express yourself well. I’m not going to suggest the old pointer of imagining everyone in the room in their underwear. That’s a distraction I certainly wouldn’t need. But you do need to realize that they empathize with you and are glad you are up there and not them. They really do want you to do well and are pulling for you, not against you. The trick for me has been to always open up sharing something that makes me feel comfortable . . . a story about a good time in my life that is appropriate to the topic. Once you realize the audience is with you, you begin to be “with them” instead of in front of them. I actually enjoy speaking. Go get ‘em.
As to your final question, I can accept that you have a different viewpoint that you believe to be truth. However, I can’t accept that it is truth. As I said, turning away from my beliefs and dismissing what I believe is very clear in scripture would be too great a price to pay and would in no way be a caring thing to do towards you.
Could I break bread with you without judging you or attempting to save you? Of course I could. You have professed to be a Christian and you are therefore saved by your own profession and I consider you a brother. You are already saved.
I would enjoy breaking bread with you. I have a feeling you have much more to talk about than just this issue. I certainly do, though this one is extremely important and very near and dear.
Thom
October 16, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Hey Kurt,
I wanted to answer the question you posed to me in an earlier post;
“I would be interested to know if you ever found out the basic belief about ssa, as you say you knew there was “something not right about it” as a small child. What do you think caused that assertion at the onset of knowing you were gay?”
To be honest, and I’m not trying to over spiritualize myself or my response to your question, but I truly believe it was the Holy Spirit even though I had no idea who He was or what He was at the time!?!
As I stated earlier, I did not grow up in a per say christian home. We were Catholic but our attendance was spotty at best so I don’t even recall being in mass that often. After my mother’s death, I was only 8 (but I became aware of my SSA when I was 6) we stopped attending services all together. But I never stopped searching for God, seemed like I was always on the look out for Him, even though I do not recall my parents ever discussing religion or morals in my presence.
It would not be until I became a teenager and was given a Good News bible as a gift did I come back in contact with anything that had to do with God or religion. After reading the gospels and further study into the New Testament I believe it finally made sense to me why I may have reacted to my SSA the way I did as a small child.
I hope that answers your questions and as I said before, I am not trying to be ‘uber spiritual’ in my response but rather being honest about what I believe was responsible for tweeking my conscience about SSA at such a young age.
October 17, 2009 at 5:16 am
Neo-I think you raise a good point about how people will sometimes get counseling for their SSA and address certain perceived root issues, only to find that it does not remove the SSA. I had a similar experience. I worked through all the things that were supposed to have been causal, and I found a lot of healing in that in other ways, but the SSA remained. I have heard from those who have gone back to same-sex relationships that this is one of the reasons why. They worked the program and still it didn’t heal their SSA, so they decided that if it wasn’t really those things that caused their SSA in the first place, maybe there was a different explanation–i.e. God made them this way, etc. Of course, we don’t really know for sure what causes homosexuality. And there can be reasons why SSA remains even after working through stuff that might be causal. For example, for some, who have been sexually active that leaves an imprint on the brain that I don’t think is easily removed by working through environmental issues.
Kurt–I have enjoyed all of you running amok on my blog.
Anyway, I agree that some who choose celibacy or have issues with being sexual (gay or straight) may have sexual abuse issues or other such things and it would do well to work through those. I don’t think a reaction to abuse is a good reason to remain celibate. Rather, I think we ought to choose chastity based on a healthy and informed decision about what we believe is wise.
You write: “Part of me has to concede to let them do their thing as they will. The other wants to work with those who want to resolve their confusion so as to make sane choices for their love and sex lives.” I think you assume that most people are in ex-gay ministry because they are confused. I would object to your estimation that their involvement is because they are not making sane choices, and that the only sane choice is to affirm homosexuality.
You also write: “The “red flag” in my suffering model is only a monitoring device, not a ticket to “give in” to sexual disorder, whatever that may look like for any particular person and their circumstances.” I think this is what it comes down to is what we consider to be sin, and what is sexually wise and ethical. From what I have read you are affirming homosexuality primarily based on feelings–you feel loved by God and enjoy the freedom and release of being able to express your desires. For me to affirm homosexuality, I would need more than that. I look at experience, but also Scripture and the spiritual results I see on a broader scale (e.g. affirming homosexuality often seems to change people’s views of Scripture and even Christ himself and that has always been suspect to me. Not that this happens to everyone, but its seems to be the majority).
Norm, you asked: “I have to ask though, how did your experience with ex-gay ministries help or prevent you from not-trying-to-change? It seems some type of change is the whole point of ex-gay ministries (hence Exodus’ “Change Is Possible” ad campaign).”
Just to clarify, I did try to change while part of ex-gay ministry. Actually when I first went to a counselor at my bible college, I thought I would go to a few sessions and clear up the whole “misunderstanding.” I was so clueless. So, when I went to the ex-gay support group, I found the theories made sense and fit some of my experiences and so I tried to work through those things. However, I only participated in ex-gay ministry for two years. And I probably tried to change for 4-5 years–by working through environmental issues such as my anger toward men, etc. After about five years though I just became very depressed and realized that my attractions were not changing. This is around the time I also contemplated just embracing homosexuality. I can relate to how the discouragement over lack of change naturally leads to that for many. But instead, I just decided to stop trying to change and accept for my same-sex attractions for what they were. So I didn’t affirm homosexuality, but I did stop getting so hung up on it as something I needed to eradicate. I decided if God wanted to do something about it, he could do it because I did my part and nothing happened. So I was going to move on to focus my life on other things.
On another note, I hear what you are saying to Debbie about the woman in the support group. I wonder though if you would be completely neutral yourself. So if you met someone who was on the fence and they were seriously considering ex-gay ministry, I imagine that you would probably feel inclined to tell them about your own experience and that you didn’t necessarily think ex-gay ministry was the way to go. We all naturally influence others in what we think is helpful. But there is a very fine line there between being helpful and being paternalistic and I think both sides are guilty of crossing that line at times. As I have said in other posts, its important for people to own their own journeys. That is the only thing that is going to stick in the long run. Riding on someone’s beliefs will fizzle out in time.
October 17, 2009 at 6:52 am
“I’ll be the first to admit that I have no qualification to determine the proper use of psychotherapy terminology, but aren’t you encouraging transference and countertransference by taking a motherly role in this woman’s life and counseling her to uphold your belief of what God wants for her?”
Let me make a few points about this. First, I easily could have pursued the professional counseling route, but eschewed it for me in the long run because I saw a great value in lay ministry (I prefer to call it discipleship rather than counseling, but it is both), and I think this “ministry of reconciliation” role is sadly lacking in many of our churches today.
We have enthroned psychology far more than it merits, I think, and have glued it to biblically based Christian counseling to the extent that it is now hard to separate the two. And psychology has secular roots. I’m not crazy about anything Freudian or Jungian as they both had their weirdness. There are plenty other “fathers of psychology” who left their imprint on it, too.
That said, I have no idea why I brought up the transference principle, and I am wishing I hadn’t. It is mentioned briefly in the Christian workbook my group uses as a recovery/growth tool, so it must have been on my brain.
I also need to point out that those women are dealing with problems in their lives beyond same-sex attraction. I worked for the five years prior to facilitating this group with folks dealing with depression and anxiety. My women have dealt with that, eating disorders, sexual abuse, substance abuse and codependency, to name the most prominent issues. Most have been in multiple lesbian relationships that caused them a great deal of pain when they ended.
We do need to recognize that psychology has some aspects that are affirmed in Scripture. God made us physical, emotional and spiritual beings. Stuff happens to us in this fallen life, and we deal with it in ways that are sometimes predictable, but not always.
As far as my “mothering” statement goes, I am well aware that most women struggling with SSA have some mother (and father) issues. It can be helpful for someone to model godly femininity and motherhood to them. Don’t read too much into that. There are deficits there, for the most part. They sometimes call me “the mother hen.” Their term, not mine. I care deeply about these women, and they know I fervently pray for them, while encouraging them to do the same for each other. It helps a lot.
The women I seek to help are free at the end of the day to believe what they wish to and to live their lives in accordance with their faith and perceived needs. I care enough about them to offer the whole truth to them, but I can never force them to accept life on my terms.
October 17, 2009 at 6:58 am
Thom,
What an uplifting comment with the helping hand about public speaking. Oddly enough my talk is on Courage, so it all kinda fits together. Every time I want to cancel I think of the title and it collapses some of my fear. But thanks so much for your support on that, I can sure use all I can get.
I appreciate your stance on our different lifestyles. I would not want you to be gay and live like I do perse thinking one lifestyle is better than another. My desire for you would be to have you free from shame doubt struggling etc, so you don’t have to live in that sort of fear. I’m not attached to someone being or living gay or str8, but the removal of fear, like my speaking fear, are the culprits I lazer at. We are taught fear from so many angles in this world, it is truly astounding.
Regarding sexual abuse, thanks for sharing that. I can certainly empathize as I too was sexually abused, and not by a male. (I presume yours was from a male) My abuse was forgotten completely as it happened at a very young age, to be discovered later in life. I agree with all the stats; it is the most horrifying and brain scrambling event one could possibly imagine. The betrayal by someone who is supposed to be our best teacher and support system and love us unconditionally, is so deep and so intense, well, it definitely affected every area of my life. It took my alpha male and rendered it to C class if you will, and kinda put a basic fear of, or lack of trust of people in me, and it made me shyer than necessary.
I could never figure out why I had so much rage, that was non directed at anything or anyone. It was just rage within. It wasn’t until later in life that I figured out it was betrayal rage from the sexual abuse. I dealt with it and now am happier and happier every day, but I don’t really think one can ever know what a life without it could have been like. I think there is always a film of it somewhere in the being. Time will tell because I am monitoring my self very closely.
I have another question for you Thom; if you have never had a time when you were completely free from judgment around your ssa sexuality, how do you know that my life is not better than yours, or your life is better than mine, the “better good”? As unlike you, I have none of the struggling and negs around sexuality in my life.
AG,
Thanks for responding to my query. I too was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school for 8 years. When I was growing up we didn’t use the term Holy Spirit, we called ‘em Gaurdian Angels, do you remember that term? Everybody had just one for there own communication and could talk to them and also listen. I thought that was pretty cool though I couldn’t hear a nit, no one could.
I never heard or felt any messages about my being gay either way, good or bad, nor was there any talk of it in my church or family. My neg messages didn’t come until later on in life when the cultural war started, then it got pretty crazy in my head. Plus I was dealing with resolving sexual abuse, so I was in quite the multi tasking brain blender for quite a while.
Oddly enough, I found that the sexual abuse from yes, my mother, caused me to have sexual relationships with women, some I really liked. But they were only half baked compared to a man. A man “completes me”, where a woman can’t.
I knew I was gay even before the sexual abuse and as I look back now, I probably never would have had sexual relationships with women, had I not been sexually abused by my mother.
I say this to you, though the sex abuse may seem a bit off subject, because during my entire life, I never had a similar message as you. Even throughout the back and forth with women and men, it was all simply experience, with no tag lines of good or bad involved regarding sexual expression.
Now shoot an arrow at my spirituality or sexual expression, and I can definitely react, but that is from outside sources, not an internal tape in my head saying I’m bad wrong “broken” or defective.
I always wonder where we get our “messages” from. The more I unravel about my life as a sexually abused kid, the stronger I get but messages are derived and discarded also. I feel sometimes like my entire life had been built on sand because of it, and I am more prone now to build on solid rock.
Any other “messages” you may have felt, that you would like to share?
Thanks for sharing your experience and getting back to me.
October 17, 2009 at 7:09 am
I decided to break this up into two comments.
Karen brought up her take on change, and I appreciate that. Those of us who regularly bat around the gay/ex-gay/post-gay issues of the day in the blogosphere always go ’round at some point about what change is and how much change is possible. We do need to be careful — especially those of us in “ex-gay” ministry — not to imply that change always means going from gay to straight. I know folks who were a part of Exodus and other ministries way back in the early days when the Jesus Movement was the thing. The message being touted then was that folks could change all the way — the old “pray away the gay.”
We’ve learned a lot in the ensuing years about what change is and isn’t. I very much like the way Alan Chambers describes it today. He prefers to think of change as the journey to holiness, and that is going to look different for everybody. God’s grace may indeed allow for a “conversion” from gay (or bisexual, which more aptly describes where I was) to heterosexual functioning, even to the point of marriage for some folks. How many of those folks are out there? Hard to say as many just want to live their lives quietly without taking a public stance. I can’t blame them.
You have people arguing an infinitem about this study and that, trying to prove that change is or isn’t possible and that Exodus and others inflate the numbers to make it sound more possible than it is. That’s a tough one. More and more of us are coming to see that it is OK to stop pushing change on people as the resulting guilt when it doesn’t happen can do lots of harm. By the same token, however, we don’t get to affirm (according to our understanding of Scripture) that “gay is God’s gift” as some Christian gay groups maintain. At least not in the sense that it is part of His design. It may be a gift to the extent (as some have testified to here) it draws us closer to God and opens us to a deeper faith than we might have otherwise known. Some folks are much more comfortable with the term post-gay rather than ex-gay. I think it is more apropos to most of us who have walked away from whatever homosexuality looked like in our past lives.
I can’t fully explain where homosexuality comes from, nor do I feel I need to. I know we are a fallen, broken people in so many ways. I just can’t see God, as someone else said earlier, playing a cruel joke on us. His ways are not our ways, and we will know fully when we see Him face to face. I can accept that He loves us all and wants His best for us.
October 17, 2009 at 7:55 am
Karen,
I’m glad you found my running amock on your blog enjoyable.
In response to your comments in general; I seem to be one in this conversation who has had no programming that I am somehow an “abomination”, “sexually broken”, and live in “struggle”. My thoughts and feelings about men are both aligned and both give a green light.
Is it your contention that I take on neg thoughts as you endure, leaving my feelings to beg, so that I might find a better way to live my life? My thoughts and feelings then would be diametrically opposed. To me that is an inner armageddon. That’s just a mess in my experience. And seems rather macabre. If I took on the negs, my thoughts would then be diametrically opposed to my experience of being a whole gay male, fracturing me at my core.
My focus is to be a happy learner, with struggles of course. But my goal is to collapse those issues of negative feelings, aligning thoughts and feelings together so a war within is not afoot, not bathe in their opposition without resolve. Feelings and thoughts are how we navigate this world. Do you not use your feelings to determine your plight in life, along with your thoughts? I for one would not exclude one for the other. For me, they both have valid merit.
Regarding “sane” choices in ex-gay ministry. I have always found for myself, it is hard to make sane choices when I am scared or confused. My contention with ex-gay would not be to have them become gay affirming, as much as to simply remove fears so they can move in whatever direction they deem best for their lives. To be told one way to live is the only Ok way to be, to me, is restrictive and damaging and that has been proven to be the case time and time again. I therefore would help to remove all confusion and fear, and whatever source that may be scaring someone from, so they can see clearly who they are and how they want to navigate the world.
I want people to be happy with their lives, and not live in struggle. I could care less if they are a gay guy and choose to marry a woman, or visa versa, as long as that is their fearless choice and brings them the life they want. I will say that I find affirming both stances helpful, as it does collapse the war, in me anyway. And it opens me up to conversation that was not possible while in the war of who’s right and who is wrong.
When we are happy we can be closer to God and each other. That is diminished when living in fear.
Some tend to make reading the Bible and “feeling good” about it, a mental thing that soothes until next needed. That seems more like a constant anesthetic regarding sexuality, rather than a cure. They still have opposite feelings and thoughts creep in as they are still present, no matter what scripture is read. So nothing gets resolved. What is the answer to resolving that other than “live with it and do as you are told”? For many that is not a resolve, but an overbearing controlling dictate. For some it is just what they need to have structure in their lives. Both are fine. I guess the hardest thing to realize is there are more than just one view, and they are all ok. But ones who are struggling may need to know that, so they can move in flexibility, and not feel as though they are living in a straight jacket.
I would surely love to know from your perspective, how to flat line this problem in current time, not when one dies, as you seem much more Biblicaly read than I might be.
October 17, 2009 at 8:23 am
Kurt,
We agree on the value of living a life absent of shame. Shame cause us to reverse our postures and focus very inwardly in our thinking. I have been there; grew up that way. I think much of the shame resulted from the child sexual abuse — I was only 8 — but much of it developed from a constant reminding to myself that I was falling short . . . of something. Had someone, maybe a dad?, been around to tell me that was not true, but that instead I was just growing into what God designed me to be, I might have breathed a sigh of relief and accepted myself better. You are right about the abuse. It takes a life that would have been and makes it something else. I also wonder what I might have been like without that intrusion. I think I would have liked me sooner. I tried to explore that in one of my books, but did it pretty awkwardly. I think I will be able to do it better soon.
I don’t suffer from shame now. But believe me, when I do something wrong, I experience guilt. They’re significantly different: shame and guilt. Guilt is warranted for actions we take that separate us from God . . . and . . . handled appropriately, through forgiveness, we return to Him.
You said:
“I have another question for you Thom; if you have never had a time when you were completely free from judgment around your ssa sexuality, how do you know that my life is not better than yours, or your life is better than mine, the “better good”? As unlike you, I have none of the struggling and negs around sexuality in my life.”
Kurt, your question is not really quite as relevant as it at first sounds. My decision to reject homosexuality is not based on judgment reflected by others. It is based on my clear understanding of God’s intent for me and my desire to live as closely to that intent as possible. If judgment or lack thereof were our guide, Christianity itself would have faltered and died, as the first Christians were judged mightily by those around them and endured great mocking and rejection. We err when we base our decisions on anything other than what we believe God would have us do. Believe me. I have proven that truth.
I can’t say that my life is “better than yours,” but I believe it is better for me. And, if you have escaped all the struggling and negativity that invades our sexuality from time to time, whether straight or gay, you have put yourself into another minority altogether.
Thom
October 17, 2009 at 8:42 am
“If I took on the negs, my thoughts would then be diametrically opposed to my experience of being a whole gay male, fracturing me at my core.”
FWIW, Kurt — if you don’t mind my also weighing in — I think the clue to the conundrum you set up is in your phrase “whole gay male.” Those of us who view theology from the other end of the spectrum would just say “whole male” as we believe God had a distinct purpose for creating each sex.
I don’t think any of us wants to live in fear, but I see the thing we most want to avoid more as condemnation (see Romans 7-8). That is the big stumbling block to setting up the goal as total change for those who are struggling. Condemnation comes from the enemy (Satan, father of lies who loves to whisper to us, “indeed, has God said …?”). Conviction (godly sorrow) comes from God. If we deprive someone of knowing that, are we not also doing harm?
For those whose faith is deep-seated, there may be a legitimate fear of the consequences of rebelling against God. Does any of us know with 100 percent assurance that acquiescing to same-sex-attraction urges is not, in fact, rebellion? It feels good, but so do a lot of other things that are not in line with God’s stated purpose for us.
Food for thought.
October 17, 2009 at 8:58 am
Thom,
I see guilt as “I did something wrong”. I see shame as “I am something wrong”.
Thanks for clarifying your belief in God’s design for you, that makes good sense.
And I am also glad you said your life was better “for me” on your part. That is truly accurate as we both have paths that are different and better “for me” at any given time. It’s hard to walking in each others shoes at the same time. At times, I have a hard enough time just walking in my own.
God’s design for me is to help heal the human condition, thereby bringing people closer to Him and Christ. Sexuality or it’s expression has never been in our “conversation” as right or wrong when healing sexual wounds has been the subject; just removing pain and fear so God has happier healthier children.
As far as struggling with temptation, I still have that sexual struggle. No I am not immune to all sexual struggles, though I am without struggles of being gay str8 bi or which one is “right”.
I wish you the best with the sex abuse remnants. And I am glad you have had success in resolve.
October 17, 2009 at 11:28 am
Kurt,
Yes thanks for the remind about how many Catholics refer to the HS as ‘guardian angels’- I forgot about that until now! Interesting that you ask if I have had any other ‘messages’ similar to the one I experienced as a small child. Actually I do but they are way too numerous to list right here and now. Without going into it, my childhood was very tumultuous, but oddly enough I experienced the SSA prior to that whole downhill slide.
But to be fair I feel I must include that prior to experiencing SSA I had a one time incident of an older neighborhood boy sexually molesting me around the age of 5. I do vividly remember becoming a full fledged tomboy shortly afterwards, which looking back, I believe was a way to protect myself from that ever happening again. The chaos that followed afterwards in my family life most likely compounded my SSA. But as Karen stated earlier, even though many of us have gone down the counseling route to try and resolve our SSA, for whatever reasons, this often does not totally remove those feelings. But I will say that years of counseling and walking with the Lord did benefit me tremendously and provided much healing to my wounded body, mind, and soul!
Despite the chaoitc childhood I experienced I think the bright side is that I was able to experience God as very loving & personal. I truly believe that the cry of a small child, such as what I did back then, truly turns the ears and the heart of the Lord towards them. To this day, I often hear Him very clearly and tenderly so my relationship with God has really never been about fear or punishment unlike many who grew up in abusive and very repressed christian homes. Totally makes sense why they have a hard time comprehending that God could be loving and merciful.
So my motivation to not be in a same sex relationship has more to do with ‘quenching the Spirit’ in my life versus the ‘fear of hell and condemnation’. I no longer believe I would go to hell if I chose to engage in homosexual behavior but rather I know from personal experience that I feel the ‘lessening of His presence and peace’ which I have come to know very intimately. I know He will never leave me or forsake me but I strongly believe that we can ’squelch the Spirit’ according to what Scripture says, does that make sense?
I understand from many of your earlier comments that for whatever reason you have been able to maintain your peace with God despite being in a same sex relationship. And to that I really don’t have any explanations or comments as to why that rings true for some and not so for others? Only God truly knows our hearts and our minds, much better than we can even know ourselves. All I know Kurt is that I have enjoyed our exchanges and all the other comments made by others as it’s nice to know we can have respectful and insightful dialogue despite our differences!
October 18, 2009 at 5:01 am
Wow, what a fascinating discussion! Here is my 3 cents. Str8 guys do 2 cents. ; )
I too have suffered a the hands of religious dogma regarding same sex right and wrongs. I have also had this “feelings” thing come up in conversation. “you are just having feelings and should sublimate them or they are not telling you the truth” regarding my sexual orientation. I agree that some “feelings” like temptations that are not healthy should be tamed. Mainly just over sexualizing to the point of distraction.
Kurt mentioned we use feelings to navigate the world. That is so true at least in my case. I feel my way though most of my life as feelings are my best gauge of the wolves and the winners in the pack so to speak. I’ve got pretty good laser tone intuition.
I think feelings are how we know we are in love and are attracted to someone. It’s how we know we are in fear and to move away from something. “Trust your gut” is one of the most widely used terms in order to move in the right direction about something through feeling and instinct. My “gut” tells me I am totally gay, and so do my thoughts. I can feel totally in love with a man, but not feel totally in love with a woman. I could learn to care deeply for her, but I could not fall in love with her, mainly because we cannot connect on all levels fully, except maybe momentary sexual orgasm.
If I am romantically falling in love and “feeling” like heaven in a man’s arms and uncomfortable with the same venue in a woman’s arms, does the “feeling” and “sexual sin” argument mean I have to force myself to “feel” romantic love in a woman’s arms and suppress my real ones for a man? It would seem in that case, that the mechanations of the mental or mental constructs, are taking over the reality of the intuitive heart, the emotional construct. Or maybe better put, the rules of the head are swallowing the reality of the heart. UmmmmGulp.
I have watched gay guys who are out to dinner in opposite sex relationships, girlfriends/wives, because they “feel” they “should” be in those relationships. I have observed they look rather mechanical with their mates, have the woman in the palm of their hand, and are looking around the room at guys. I feel sorry for both of them as he is not really fully with her, and she is either blind to it or knows at some level, they are not fully connected. There are connection “feelings” missing in that picture.
When we talk about that great date, or that great person we are dating, we say how great it “feels”, a heart statement, not how great we think about it, a head statement. We get vulnerable with our “feelings”, our hearts in relationships. Unless you’re a head case and then, well, so be it.
It seems most if not all romantic sex love and marriage is based on love’s “feelings.” “I feel on top of the world when I’m with him/her” etc. Bi guys have told me the love and feelings are the same for both men and woman and the falling inlove process is equal because they can connect equally with either male of female.
Maybe Karen has a different take than I have heard before on this subject, as she seems to have good sense about a lot of this ssa stuff. I look forward to hearing her reply to Kurt’s questions as thoughts and feelings are fascinating subjects to dissect, if ya even can.
Either way, I do think our feelings are a large gauge of our life force and should be a part of our decision making process. Especially in areas of the heart, where our feelings reside, which is pretty much what all romantic sex love and relationships, married or un, straight bi and gay, are comprised.
October 18, 2009 at 9:33 am
Todd, you raise some excellent points about feelings. And, Kurt you also raise good questions. Since both of your comments are related I will respond to both of you.
In regards to feelings, I don’t mean to say feelings are meaningless. Of course not. I have very good intuition and have used my perceptive skills when I was a therapist and now as I navigate life. My thoughts and my “gut” often work in tandem. I am not dualistic in that I elevate the cognitive over and above the emotive. Both are important, both have their say.
Scripture emphasizes the concept of discernment which I think is a good example of holistic cognitive and emotive response. The word discernment or understanding in the Hebrew is “bin” which has in its meaning the idea of dividing–that is weighing different perspectives and determining which is the wise decision. Wisdom, in my mind, is not just intellectual capacity–for even those who are not educated can be more wise than those who have book learning. So wisdom is more than cognition. It is a certain perceptive quality–that includes gut.
Incidentally, I do not base my decision that homosexuality is sin on merely cognitive adherence to Scripture passages. Rather, I have experienced in my gut the Spirit’s grieving when I engage in same-sex relationships. I also sense or discern that there is something not wise about it. I look at people around me and how it has affected people’s lives on a spiritual level and noticed that so many seem to change their basic views on who Christ is. So, there is a sensing that goes into my conclusion about homosexuality and that is joined together with what I learn in Scripture. Also, there is community and I look at what the community of human beings around the world over the centuries have thought of this issue. And I look at the Church and what the church community has come to on it. Not that those things are infallible, but they are something that I take into consideration.
So basically, I weigh things on Scripture, experience, gut instincts, community input, trends in the broader movement and whether they bring people closer to or farther from Christ, etc.
What I mean by “feelings” then is using that by itself and as the primary source of discernment. Feelings are a good indicator of truth at times, but sometimes they are exactly what lead us in the wrong direction. This is especially true when it comes to sex and romance because falling in-love and the sex drive are so chemically related. Its actually like being on a drug in terms of what is happening in the brain. Its like being drunk sometimes–and thus impairs our judgment in the same way alcohol can. Anyone who has impulsively gotten into a relationship they later regretted can attest to this. So, yes falling in love may feel very good and everything in my body and emotions might be screaming “Yes! Go for it!” But, this cannot be the sole source of my decision. I have to examine that feeling. For example, is the person I am in love with already taken? So, then my feelings tell me yes, but my wisdom says no. And I overrule the feelings.
Yes, my attractions tell me I am gay. And I don’t try to pretend that is not true. But, do my attractions then mean it is wise to pursue them? I have to evaluate that further. Many men naturally are attracted to lots of women (or men) simultaneously and are wired for multiple sex partners. But because that is biologically true and those “feelings”are true should they be acted on? Or is there something noble and good about self-restraint at times? And why is that self-restraint good? Clearly, there is something about faithfulness to a partner that resonates as wiser to us than having relationships indiscriminately.
So feelings certainly can be a good and helpful thing but not the sole source of decision making. The real question here becomes–should homosexuality, like certain other sexual practices, be avoided for wise reasons? In my view, homosexuality is not the proper context for a sexual relationship and thus it wise to refrain even when my feelings would rather I not refrain.
Kurt–on another note, I wanted to respond to a few points you made. You write: “I seem to be one in this conversation who has had no programming that I am somehow an “abomination”, “sexually broken”, and live in “struggle” . . . Is it your contention that I take on neg thoughts as you endure, leaving my feelings to beg, so that I might find a better way to live my life?”
Just to clarify I do not think you or I or any other gay person is an “abomination.” That terms is never used in Scripture to refer to a person, but rather a behavior. I personally do not have neg thoughts about myself and I really agree with you that it would be best if people could move away from negs.
I think we are all amazing creations of God, and having same-sex attractions is not this awful, wretched thing that has to be so shaming or contribute to self-loathing etc. It simply is what it is. And its not something I feel negative about in regards to myself (though in the past I once did). I don’t tend to see myself, presently, as much as in a “struggle” either or sexually broken. I am pretty stable and content in my sexuality and chastity even when sometimes challenges come along.
You write: “I want people to be happy with their lives, and not live in struggle.” I too want people to be happy, but I don’t think happiness always comes to us the way we think it will. And I also do not think happiness is the ultimate virtue. Do you see any room for hardship to actually be a good thing? For example, I think of Mother Theresa who endured much struggle and hardship in order to bring blessing and life to so many. I think of Paul the Apostle who endured beatings and shipwrecks, and hunger in order to tell the world about the love of Christ. I think of athletes who suffer in their training in order to win a race. Or I think of the mother who works three jobs so that she can give her children the gift of college. I think of Christ who suffered ridicule and even death for a higher purpose. Sometimes the most noble and best things in the world come only because we forsake our immediate happiness and convenience for a higher purpose.
You referred to those in ex-gay ministry as perhaps fearful. And I agree some may be fearful. And I agree that any fear should be cast out. God does not desire us to live fear ridden lives. But, I have actually found that many ex-gay participants are incredibly courageous people–not fearful. These are individuals who are facing their issues straight on in a way that most people in church and society do not. They are some of the most fearless people I have met in their willingness to take risks with vulnerability. Transparency is a scary thing and yet these folk often do it regularly. And it takes tremendous courage to say “no” to what comes easily (a same-sex relationship) in order to take the much harder road of self-restraint. There is much courage and faith in many ex-gays.
In my own life, I got rid of the negs when I finally realized how much God loved me whether I was gay or straight. And so, I follow God not out of fear but because I am crazy in love with him and I trust him for my well-being. Since I have been obedient to him by not being in same-sex relationships (for the last 8 years), I have been the happiest I have ever been. Happier than when I was in those same-sex relationships–as much as I enjoyed them, and would even enjoy them still. There is a paradox in the Christian life where even when the Christian life often demands sacrifice, there is something so joy producing about following Jesus. And doing what God wants us to do is all about shalom, not negs. It is all about letting go of negs. Because well-being comes from God. And so anyone who desires deep joy will only find it by pursuing God and doing what he asks. I think of the woman in the video I just posted “Three gay people seeking God”–where she had her same-sex relationship and everything she wanted–except no peace. And it was, ironically, in losing her life (by giving up homosexuality) that she found and experienced a joy that made her want to “shout from the rooftops”
So, in essence, I see abstaining from same-sex relationships as not about negs. But all about noble pursuit of God, courage and profound joy.
October 18, 2009 at 10:15 am
@Karen: “…Just to clarify, I did try to change while part of ex-gay ministry. … So, when I went to the ex-gay support group, I found the theories made sense and fit some of my experiences and so I tried to work through those things. However, I only participated in ex-gay ministry for two years. And I probably tried to change for 4-5 years–by working through environmental issues such as my anger toward men, etc. After about five years though I just became very depressed and realized that my attractions were not changing. …”
It seems you and I can agree that we were not in a good places after our ex-gay ministry experiences. While we obviously took different paths in recovering from our ex-gay experiences, I would be interested your thoughts on how your ex-gay experiences could have been made better.
In hindsight, would you recommend an ex-gay ministry to a conservative Christian with SSA? I guess I’m trying to figure out how ex-gay ministries fit into your attempt to change and later your decision to not change and focus on other things. In hindsight, do you regret your ex-gay experience?
Would you recommend an ex-gay ministry in light of your current decision to not seek change? My sense of ex-gay ministries is that while celibacy is technically okay, it seems there is an attitude that gay celibacy is settling for less than pursuing one’s full potential.
“…On another note, I hear what you are saying to Debbie about the woman in the support group. I wonder though if you would be completely neutral yourself. So if you met someone who was on the fence and they were seriously considering ex-gay ministry, I imagine that you would probably feel inclined to tell them about your own experience and that you didn’t necessarily think ex-gay ministry was the way to go…”
I doubt anyone can truly be neutral, but we can respect others’ journeys and faith. I have shared my honest opinion and experiences with a few folks considering ex-gay ministry, but I was also careful to honor and respect their decision. There is an important distinction between sharing one’s experience and opinion as a peer versus counseling someone.
@theformers: “….First, I easily could have pursued the professional counseling route, but eschewed it for me in the long run because I saw a great value in lay ministry (I prefer to call it discipleship rather than counseling, but it is both), and I think this “ministry of reconciliation” role is sadly lacking in many of our churches today. …”
While a counseling degree and license do not guarantee good therapy, it is important for anyone in a counseling role to recognize their professional limitations and to continue to learn safe and effective counseling practices.
“…I worked for the five years prior to facilitating this group with folks dealing with depression and anxiety. My women have dealt with that, eating disorders, sexual abuse, substance abuse and codependency, to name the most prominent issues. …”
Wow, I imagine few people equipped to effective counsel regarding a wide-range of complex and difficult issues.
Admittedly, I don’t know the details of your ministry, so I shouldn’t make assumptions. However, what concerns me are the many stories of lay leaders starting-up ex-gay ministries with little or no training. Ex-gay ministry often involves counseling far beyond biblical issues and delving into complex and sensitive issues (i.e. numerous sexual issues, childhood abuse/trauma, self esteem, gender identity, etc.). Worse, conservative Christians who seek ex-gay ministry are often in desperate situations and are more susceptible to believe any seemingly Christian answer offered without question.
“…The women I seek to help are free at the end of the day to believe what they wish to and to live their lives in accordance with their faith and perceived needs. I care enough about them to offer the whole truth to them, but I can never force them to accept life on my terms.”
I don’t think you intended your comment as a disclaimer. Clearly, good intentions do not absolve a counselor of responsibility.
Of course, in our society, anyone is free to pursue their own faith. However, within a fundamentalist religious perspective, the underlying threat of eternal damnation and community exile doesn’t really leave ex-gay participants the option to freely leave a seemingly biblically-sound path.
October 18, 2009 at 1:00 pm
karen,
My newest comment doesn’t seem to be appearing, did you set your settings differently or . . . ?
Kurt
October 18, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Trying again . . .
Hi Karen, thanks so much for your response.
It seems that the feelings subject may hold two areas. The feelings that if we act on them, get us in trouble, and the ones that don’t and could lead us to love relationship and/or marriage. I agree with that without a hitch. And I agree it’s true for gay and str8 equally as it is obvious with gay marriage that sexual gays lead full rich lives, and Christic, as I do. We can’t just flicker off the stats or we won’t get a true picture.
But the aspect where you say that you notice people who “give in” to their homosexuality and it’s “acting out” (which I call fearlessly showing up and taking charge of one’s life) somehow changes their way of viewing Christ, because it is a homosexual life. Do you think that is true for everyone?
I for one have seen how gay guys marrying straight women then going to hell and back on the issue, certainly can warp a person’s view of Christ and the church. Or being beat to hell and back with Leviticus Corinth and Romans, the ultimate neg gay 3-way. But when someone is aligned with all their thoughts and feelings with Christ and being gay and sexual, it does not seem to be an issue. I had to throw out Levi Cory and Roma, but they aren’t Christ. My love for Christ never wavered as he was not even around when the Bible was written as he had died 60 some years before the first stroke of the pen had been laid towards biblical scripture. With no editor in Christ, it does make some things suspect, such as the homosexual take in the Bible. Considering they still murder gays in the Middle East, where the Bible was written, well I think you see my point.
As a therapist, I would think you are aware or have read about mass hypnosis. I have often wondered that because so many Christians are bathed in negs about homosexuality from the onset, that they possibly could be hypnotized so deeply, that the truth of the simple nature of mankind to have a homosexual component, is hazed, dismissed and even pummeled dramatically. Could not the fact that homosexuality appearing in over 4000 species including mankind, and the polite dismissal of such data by Christians, goes by the wayside as a forced hypnotic by-product? Would not this be the ultimate mass psychosis brought on by foul thinking? So I put to you, if there had been no negs in the Bible about homosexuality, how do you think our world would look today?
You say you are very happy being celibate. Have you ever had attractions to men or been in a great relationship with one? Not that I think this matters concerning sexuality, but is there any sex abuse in your personal history?
You lay out some interesting takes Karen, on discernment. I for one find discernment regarding sexual acting out, the same for gays an str8s. When it comes down to it, love is love and can be fully experienced by both, with Christ in the middle. If one hasn’t been beaten up too badly by the church, I would think this is more the case then not. I wonder if you simply dismiss stats on loving gay couples that have it all with Christ included, as some str8s do, for your one sided view of gay sexuals and Christ.
The negs you attach to the “acting out” part, are the ones I was referring to in my previous comment. And I meant “acting out” not being just gay. I apologize if I didn’t make that clear.
To recant: As a therapist view, would you have me take on those negs about my sex life being clear of them now, “abomination, sexual brokenness, detestable act etc” in order to have a better life in Christ? If I had those beliefs going on, would not it be better to drop the evil in them, from a thereputic point of view, then see where I land with Christ and gay sex, thereby relieving a negative mass hypnotic trance I may have been living in unknowingly?
Therapists in my view, are there to remove the fear of the dark and turn on the light, not scream at us in the darkness, galvanizing fearful beliefs, while shivering in the cold.
Thanks for all your input Karen, you sure do know how to make me think about things!
I look forward to your response.
AG
I have to say your comment brought joyful tears to my eyes. Thanks so much. I have had such a hard time doing this very thing of even-conversation in polarizing conditions, that well, your last sentence in your comment really touched me. Cuz your right Sister! It is great we can have differences and still be civil on a neutron bomb issue. Politicians do it all the time, but they are being paid for it. If I were being paid, I’m sure my sometimes volatile temper, would be just that, tempered. Thanks, and is the Tomboy still where you hail from?
Semper,
You seem to have gone away. I would so like to hear from you and how you are doing with all this. In your plight, you seem to have a lot going on, you must be in a bit of a blender by now. Care to say hi?
Thom,
I found Todd’s comments interesting about mixed marriages/relationships and the guy not truly being there on all levels for his girlfriend or wife, as chemically, he just couldn’t be. Does any of that resonate for you?
I was not sure if you only had attractions for men most of your life, or if you were bi, so this question may not even fit. Maybe you could fill in the blanks? Thanks man.
Debbie,
I am a whole gay male. There are str8 whole males and gay whole males. But yes, both are males. I think it’s just a matter of trying to make words fit so we can understand each other. Jared said if you have any question about me being a full whole gay male, he will be glad to give you his view point.
So I think it’s pancakes or waffles this morning, not sure. But I’m going to tiptoe and find out.
October 18, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Ah, I now see it is waiting moderation. Why the change or is there a glitch in the system?
October 18, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Hi Kurt,
I think it didn’t like the AOL e-mail address in there. Did you mean to cut and paste that into your post? If not, I can edit it out. Karen
October 18, 2009 at 2:59 pm
“And doing what God wants us to do is all about shalom, not negs. It is all about letting go of negs. Because well-being comes from God. And so anyone who desires deep joy will only find it by pursuing God and doing what he asks. I think of the woman in the video I just posted “Three gay people seeking God”–where she had her same-sex relationship and everything she wanted–except no peace. And it was, ironically, in losing her life (by giving up homosexuality) that she found and experienced a joy that made her want to “shout from the rooftops.”
I appreciate you sharing that, Karen. It’s what this blog and “the walk” is all about.
Norm expressed some concerns — quite understandably — about the ministry work I do. I am sure I’ll never be able to convince some folks that small group facilitating in the lay model is a valid approach when stacked up against professional counseling. So be it. Both are vital and very much needed.
I do need to make it clear that I am extremely blessed to be a part of a recovery ministry that is one of the best, if not the best, in terms of training and leadership in a church setting today. We have close oversight by a longtime professional counselor who has a heart for this particular kind of ministry. We are required to have a minimum of a year of classroom training and six additional months of supervised internship in a group. Newer facilitators are assigned an experienced mentor for at least a year. We are only allowed to take a group if we are approved by our counseling pastor, and believe me, some don’t make the cut. Frankly, I am not aware of any other church program with such stringent requirements of its leaders. We go year-round, with very little time off. We have regular supervision meetings to “check the pulse.”
I believe that the Church somewhere along the line ceased being the Church in the sense of bearing of one another’s burdens and mature Christians discipling weaker brothers and sisters. Our community became fractured. That gave rise to the therapist culture where counselors became our surrogate friends/mentors. Lay counseling ministries within churches became the next logical step. Of course, we all became more attuned to mental health issues and less stigmatized by them. That’s not altogether a bad thing.
It is true that some churches are throwing folks out there to do this kind of ministry without the requisite preparation or support. I wish that were not the case. Some of our folks receive professional counseling as well as doing the weekly group thing. We are trained to refer people for one-on-one counseling if it is needed. We know and respect our limitations. Because we work with people who are dealing with the same stuff we once were, we have a level of empathy that can be quite effective. It also means we have a finely tuned B.S. meter because we’ve been there and done that. Sometimes, it’s what folks need.
Above all, we strive to stay grounded in Scripture, which means we are offering timeless help, aided by the Spirit, who is able to speak that timeless truth to each individual’s heart. He is the light. We are only facilitating its delivery.
Hope that helps to better explain what I do.
October 18, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Karen,
Sure, you can cut it out. It was not intended to be there.
Thanks!
October 18, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Norm–You write: “In hindsight, would you recommend an ex-gay ministry to a conservative Christian with SSA? I guess I’m trying to figure out how ex-gay ministries fit into your attempt to change and later your decision to not change and focus on other things. In hindsight, do you regret your ex-gay experience?”
I do not regret my experience because it was the first safe place I ever had to be open about what was going on with me. I felt totally accepted. And I met some awesome people–some whom I am still friends with today. And I have enjoyed the Exodus conferences where there is great worship and fellowship. As for whether I would recommend an ex-gay group–I have mixed feelings. First it depends on the group. For example, Courage would be a place that seems to focus on Christ in way that is healthy. Also there are places like Where Grace Abounds and New Direction that I think keep the focus on Christ as opposed to change in sexual orientation. Personally, I would rather see the Church minister to people than to have gay Christians segregated out into these groups because it cuts people off from real church fellowship, and it tends to keep ex-gays in secrecy. However, we don’t have that kind of support at most churches and I think ex-gay ministry groups are better than nothing at all. And I know many of the leaders who run ex-gay ministries who are incredible people and offer great support and ministry. So, I guess I would say I would recommend a group on a case by case basis, depending on the particular ministry and who is running it. But, I would especially encourage people to get connected with a mature mentor in their church and really try to find that support and fellowship in Church when at all possible.
Kurt–Let me clarify– yes I absolutely believe that there are gay affirming Christians who love Christ as much as I do. So I am not denying that at all. What I am speaking about is the larger trends. For example, the majority of gay affirming Christians I meet–or even straights who affirm– tend to change their views on the nature of Scripture (a tendency toward viewing the Scripture as man–made and so no need to adhere to it as Divine guidance or radically change their method of interpretation). I have also seen a tendency to view Christ as just “a way” rather than the Way, the Truth and the Life. This is certainly not the case for everyone. But, I find it a very peculiar trend. For example, in the debate on women in ministry I don’t see that happening. I don’t see egalitarians changing their view of Christ or Scripture. They are often still quite orthodox in their beliefs. So, why does affirmation of homosexuality seem to alter so many people’s beliefs on core doctrines? That has always been suspect to me. Again, its not everyone. Its just my experience that its the overall trend.
You write: “I have often wondered that because so many Christians are bathed in negs about homosexuality from the onset, that they possibly could be hypnotized so deeply, that the truth of the simple nature of mankind to have a homosexual component, is hazed, dismissed and even pummeled dramatically.”
Or, perhaps they simply are listening to their conscience that homosexuality is not God’s intent. (By the way, many other religions or even secular folk have had restrictions on homosexuality, not just Christianity. The parents of one girlfriend I had were non-religious and had an adverse stance toward Christianity, but none the less were quite distressed when they found out I was involved with their daughter).
You also write: “Would you have me take on those negs about my sex life being clear of them now, “abomination, sexual brokenness, detestable act etc” in order to have a better life in Christ?”
I already answered this in my last comment regarding what I think about those terms, and also how I don’t see the pursuit of Christ as having anything to do with negs. It has everything to do with pursuing God’s shalom.
As for my attractions to men–if you click on Narratives on the top bar there is a post called “Kissing Boys” where I describe this in more detail. But, the short answer is I have never been in love with a man. And I have not been sexually attracted to men. However, in the last few years I have started to have mild attractions to men, but I haven’t had a chance to really see where that would go. I would say I have become bi-curious. But until I actually have a successful relationship with a guy, I wouldn’t consider myself bisexual yet. I am interested in dating and seeing what happens with it.
As for abuse–I was never sexually abused (that I can recall).
Anyway, Kurt, I think there is much we agree on. We simply disagree on what God says about homosexuality. Its not about fear or negs or whether or not someone can have a happy, stable monogamous same-sex relationship (which I believe gay people can have). Its simply that I believe God has certain sexual boundaries that he has established for our own benefit. And this is one of them.
Debbie–Thanks for sharing more about your program. It sounds like you guys have good preparation. I wish more church ministries were so diligent about training their leaders. Also, I left the mental health field, in part, because I was dissatisfied with not being able to fully incorporate the spiritual dimension. I much prefer spiritual direction and counsel to psychotherapy. Though I see a place for therapy. I just think its just a band-aid if you can’t address the core spiritual dimension which I think is the most powerful in transforming someone’s life.
October 18, 2009 at 6:05 pm
“Thanks for sharing more about your program. It sounds like you guys have good preparation. I wish more church ministries were so diligent about training their leaders. Also, I left the mental health field, in part, because I was dissatisfied with not being able to fully incorporate the spiritual dimension. I much prefer spiritual direction and counsel to psychotherapy. Though I see a place for therapy. I just think its just a band-aid if you can’t address the core spiritual dimension which I think is the most powerful in transforming someone’s life.”
I hear you. I don’t know how healing can be complete without addressing the spiritual dimension. I know there are Christian counselors successfully doing that, and I was blessed to have one when I was navigating out of my struggle.
October 18, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Kurt,
Sorry to be so slow in addressing your question. Sunday is a really busy day around here . . . plus I guess I’m hooked on The Amazing Race. So, here goes.
You said to me in your earlier note: “I found Todd’s comments interesting about mixed marriages/relationships and the guy not truly being there on all levels for his girlfriend or wife, as chemically, he just couldn’t be. Does any of that resonate for you? I was not sure if you only had attractions for men most of your life, or if you were bi, so this question may not even fit. Maybe you could fill in the blanks? Thanks man.”
That is a good question. Personally I’ve never been too sold on the idea of bisexuality, even though I have been sexually active with men and one woman, that being my wife. I’m not sure what being there chemically means. My love for my wife has been real since the beginning and did not need to stimulated. I also never had an issue with arousal or anything like that, so intimacy has not been an issue either.
Now, as far as attraction goes? As I worked through my issues regarding sexual orientation, I realized my attraction to the same sex was not so much sexual as it was seeking a completeness of myself through the acceptance of a man and his approval of me. I grew up with at first a sense of not measuring up . . . and replaced that later with a bit of false bravado, covering up for what I lacked by projecting that I could be anything. That lead me to lead in all sort of ways, but also always seemed to cause me to be a team of one . . . when what I really wanted was some inclusion, to be like all those other guys who have “buddies.” I wanted a close relationship with a guy and it often manifested itself into first an emotional bond that would cross the border into the physical as a way of hopefully holding on to something I seemed to have a real need for. As hard as I tried though, I could not find completeness in a relationship with a man like myself. I did and do find certain men attractive, but it is not as sexually-charged as it once was. It is more of an appreciation. I realize still that if I allow it manifest in a idolatry or seek to be the subject of that from someone else, then the relationship becomes too important to me and I will likely sabotage it in my efforts to solidify it. I began to pray that God would provide friends for me within boundaries.
I never had the issues of feeling not macho enough or being treated like a “sissy” or being labeled by one of the slang words people like to throw around that force boys and young men especially to question their masculinity. My outward appearance, mannerisms, interests, all indicated pure heterosexuality, which made it easier to keep everything hidden for way too long and avoid self-confrontation on the dispute going on inside me.
I did call myself bisexual for a while, but I realized that was just an attempt to justify what I was doing without having to identify as homosexual. It was not that I felt animosity towards homosexuals as much as it was that I recognized others did and I wanted none of that. I also was very clear in my mind about the scriptural clarity on homosexuality and was probably doing a little guilt-avoidance. We hide in a multitude of ways from the truth. I think the term “bisexual” is demeaning to both heterosexuality and homosexuality. Some who call themselves bi seem to want to assert some superiority. In my mind, it’s just confusion and avoidance.
When I married, I had already acted out several times with men while in college. I had never had sex with a woman before marriage. Much of that was my personal belief as a Christian that both men and women should be virgins when they marry. Yes, I know it is hypocritical to have relaxed that belief regarding men. It is not the only time I have deserved the label of hypocrite. The other reason I had not had sex with my wife prior to marriage — other than she would not have consented — is because I truly was fearful of performance issues. I was in love, but what if I could not make love with a woman, even if I truly loved her. I decided that if God had truly led us to each other — as I believed than and believe now — then He would create in our union a resolution to that fear.
I have made many mistakes in my life, Kurt, but my decision to marry my wife is not among them. God has made it clear to me that in this instance, His will prevailed.
I hope this makes some things more clear.
Thom
October 18, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Thom,
Thanks for that update. I haven’t had those ideas of not measuring up or not having buddies, as I was active in sports w solid male comradery complete with a strong interactive father figure. He worked out of the house so it was more how to escape him rather than wonder where he was.
When I say a man “completes” me, it’s the same as a str8 couple might say about each other; two equally sovereign people that happen to fall in love with each other, feeling intact at relative levels.
I can see how everyone is so different with their interpretations of men and women and how we interact.
I know a lot of str8 guys who have the same missing of “buddies” male bonding and all, and not feeling they measure up, but they don’t have the sex attraction, so that insecurity seems to be all over the board.
Lots of str8 guys spill their soup when they are around women they are attracted to, bumbling here and there. I think as a race we are pretty much insecure on alot of levels.
That is good though, that you nailed down that some of your sexual attraction was from an insecurity rather than a solid point of reference. In such cases i think fantasy can play a huge role and be very confusing. Did you find yourself quite taken with some guys you had sex with, on the emotional level? I know that has definitely happened to me, to my chagrin at times. But it happens to str8 people all the time so the insecurities are not one sided. I think this is where good therapy comes in, to upend those insecurities and knock them out of ones life.
I think people in general can get into sexual relationships hoping for “completion” on so many levels where they feel incomplete, and hence it’s called co-dependence. The whole prince charming, knight in shining armor thing etc. So you actually are not much different in your gay sexual longing for male approval, as a lot of str8 and gay people in co-dependent relationships.
Religion aside, it sounds like your sexual attraction is primarily for men, and that you found a woman that makes your love and sex life work, regardless of the male attraction. Would that be an authentic take?
Thanks for responding Thom. There’s always endless things to talk about on this subject.
Karen,
I was wondering if you might give a response to my question for the heck of it; if there were no negs in the Bible about homosexuality, what do you think the world would be like today for Christians and the general public?
General societal homophobia aside of someone just being different, which can send some humans into an dog chasing tail spin.
Also I agree, I think we are pretty aligned accept for the biblical negs.
October 19, 2009 at 5:27 am
PS Thom, please don’t take my male bonding thing like I don’t have some issues with men. My dad was a military drill seargent and ran the household as such. Patton style. If a guy resembles that, I can come unglued and actually find it sexually attractive, which is the weirdest thing for me. It has even been a mini fatal attraction at times as I can really go fantasy over it. None of my boyfriends have ever been that way thank God.
Anyway, I don’t want to sound like I’m above things, I just do different weirdness than some do. We are all unique in so many weird categories I’ve just got to take the load off and laugh about it sometimes. Thx for listening.
October 19, 2009 at 5:35 am
Kurt,
Thanks for your kind words! And as far as where I hail with the whole ‘tomboy’ gig- I’m actually quite fem now and most would be surprised that I was ever a tomboy. Thanks to the intervention of some very godly motherly women in my life over the years I transitioned out of that look starting in HS and I’m now very comfortable in my feminity and being a woman, except I must admit that I am very guy like when it comes to the TV remote control(I’m an inecessant channel flipper) and I still wear comfortable shoes….the shoes always gives us away….hee,hee,hee
October 19, 2009 at 5:45 am
Karen,
I totally agree with you about the ex-gay group experience as far as feeling like one exiled from my church family in order to find a safe place where I could talk about my SSA issues. That always bothered me and still does and my heart is for the church to one day be a place where we can share this burden but we still have a long ways to go unfortunately.
Debbie,
I am very interested in hearing more about the format and programs that have been implemented within your church, is there a way I can contact you for more information? Thanks!!
October 19, 2009 at 5:49 am
This is a fascinating discussion, especially between Thom and Kurt. I know that I am not exactly confident in my ability to change. Well, it’s not that I’m not confident. It’s just that all the models for change seem to revolve around fulfilling some sort of emotional same-sex deficiency (which Thom alluded to). I grew up with extremely close ties to my father and brother, and my social circle has always been straight guys with a few tomboys thrown in. Now, stereotypically I do have more feminine mannerisms, but those have never given me too much grief, especially since I was athletic in high school and my abilities there probably overshadowed any weaknesses that people perceived in me.
When I first started on this journey, I read all the standard materials, and although I’m sure I could make my experiences fit the mold and thus give myself some “hope” for change, I felt that would be wrong. I just don’t fit the standard origin model for homosexuals, and that’s okay with me. I’ll just work on my sanctification like any straight guy. It will be hard as people I know start getting married as I remain single, but hopefully I will be able to rely on God. It’s scary, but if I don’t have marriage, I can hope that he’ll give me something just as good or better.
October 19, 2009 at 6:48 am
Karen wrote: “So, why does affirmation of homosexuality seem to alter so many people’s beliefs on core doctrines?”
I think this is a very important point. I’m not a theologian, but I’ve always thought that ‘affirmation’ of homosexuality must go hand in hand with abandoning the entire orthodox teaching on sexuality, which in turn goes hand in hand with accepting ‘liberal’ opinions as a whole, which includes denial/questioning of the Virgin birth, Christ’s divinity, etc.
To put it simply, I think that dismissing the ancient fathers’ (including the writers of the Bible) pronunciations on sexuality and yet to believe them when it comes to something so unbelievable as Christ’s resurrection is a very inconsistent position!
Of course, it’s a position some hold, but as we can see from the experience of the mainline Protestant denominations, it often turns out to be a transitory position to full-fledged liberalism, then agnosticism (which I think is the most internally consistent form of liberal Christianity), etc.
I think this is another area where we have to watch out for ‘gay exceptionalism’. For me, gay affirmation is just one part of this temporal liberal Christianity.
October 19, 2009 at 6:56 am
Kurt,
I think your understanding of my situation is pretty clear, but it is important that much of that understanding be viewed in the proper tense. As I have proceeded through what I would call healing, the sexual attraction towards men has greatly decreased. The healthy attraction for male bonding has become safer. As I have become more accepting of myself, it has become easier to recognize that some relationships soar and others don’t, for many reasons, not all having to do with any deficiency on my part. I no longer feel the need to do whatever is necessary to create that co-dependency and I no longer grieve on at the loss of a relationship and wonder what I did wrong. Instead, I try to love and listen and be a friend. I have learned that being dependent on anything other than God is setting oneself up for disappointment. He gives us relationships to help each of us achieve more in Him, not so much so we can take more from each other. So, the sexual attraction towards men has been replaced with a different kind of appreciation. I’ve discovered that having close male friends provides me a clearer picture of who I was created to be . . . but completion of that creation is signified in my bonding with my wife, which symbolizes all of creation. I cannot imagine any covenant relationship of this level with anyone other than her, so attempts at it would be mere pleasure-seeking now.
While we frequently debate the specific scripture verses that deal with homosexuality, we need to remember that God’s Word is intended to be perceived in its wholeness. If you read the entire Bible, it’s important to note that it is not just an occasional scripture that deals with this issue. Pretty much every story, law, proverb, exhortation, metaphor and verse of poetry that has anything at all to do with human sexuality does so with the prerequisite that He is talking about a man and a woman. There’s just no way to get around His intent. He doesn;t dwell much on exceptions.
As to your question about whether I found myself “quite taken” with some of the guys I had sex with? Yes, I did. I think my college roommate and I would have described our emotional relationship at the time as being “in love.” We came together out of great longing for things missing in our lives and thought we could fulfill that in each other in a disastrous take-take relationship. Only one other relationship became as intense and it was with someone who put me on a pedestal, creating in me an odd psychological stress of trying to achieve being worthy of that pedestal, at great cost to anyone else in my life. Only he mattered and my decisions at that time were all made with that in mind. He was experiencing the same thing. I discovered in that relationship how dangerous the co-dependency can become. It too ended in disaster and emotional pain. I realize this happens as well in heterosexual relationships as we discover ourselves, but nothing pulled me as far away from God as did that relationship. When we are on a pedestal . . . or when we are looking up at someone we have put there, we are far distracted from God’s purposes.
I want to echo Debbie’s comments about the lay ministries that are making a significant difference in the lives of people who consider their same-sex attraction to be an unwanted struggle. For many, the church has been a fearful place to seek help because the church is not yet equipped to respond properly, despite generations of being told we are to love and being reminded we are not to throw the first stone. Many of the people in our ministry, (First Stone) which currently has about 70 men and women meeting together on a weekly basis in small groups, come from churches, are maintaining their church ties and hope to strengthen them, grow in them and perhaps be able to help change the approach. Our group leaders are trained, are under the direction of further-trained leaders, a board composed of ministers and family counselors and use highly-tested materials. However, we are able to approach strugglers as fellow-strugglers from a point of understanding that perhaps even a highly-trained psychologist might not fully understand. We have the same yearning for freedom. We also have a “what’s said in group stays in group” mantra that allows an openness that occurs nowhere else. There is no danger. And . . . as is evidenced by this discussion alone, people need to be able to discuss this very important issue in our lives. It is amazing what impact our sexuality has on all of our being, as God intended.
Thom
October 19, 2009 at 7:13 am
Jay,
I admire your stand, that you will pursue sanctification like any straight guy, in part because the roots of your same-sex attraction issue don’t see to go down into the “norms,” if that can ever be used in relationship to this struggle . . . ha!
While I did go through some of the clearly-established historical causes — sexual abuse and father-abandonment — I have been able to deal with those through forgiveness and acceptance of those men’s fallen state. At some point, when all the causes are set aside, we’re left with ourselves and our struggle. Like straight guys, I guess. We still have to find our fulfillment in God’s plan for us, which, in my view of scripture, precludes homosexuality. So, unless we just decide our perceived personal needs trump God’s perfect plan, we need to appeal to Him and not others.
Don’t discount marriage as a possibility for you. You have the right attitude and you have the right goals. That could very well be very appealing to just the right person who can embrace your honesty and understand you as a person unique in God’s creation. There are a lot of people out there who are looking for that. I am not disregarding that celibacy is not God’s plan for some, but I believe marriage is His plan for most.
Thom
October 19, 2009 at 7:16 am
Saul,
Good points. As a Christian who believes firmly in the power of prayer and who takes as many things as I can possibly recall to God in prayer, it is important to me to believe that His word is consistent and true. Else how could I have faith that He hears my cry? If parts of the Bible are untrue, how can I be sure that it is true that He knows me as He says He does? If He is God, why would He confuse us?
I think many of the great social questions are resolved if we take Him at His Word.
Thom
October 19, 2009 at 7:32 am
“Debbie,
I am very interested in hearing more about the format and programs that have been implemented within your church, is there a way I can contact you for more information? Thanks!!”
Sure, Grace. You can e-mail me at debbie@theformers.com.
And for the record, it is Freedom Ministry at Thomas Road Baptist Church in Lynchburg, Va. Sounds like what Thom is experiencing through First Stone is similar. And yes, confidentiality is the hallmark of our ministry. It has to be safe. And we enforce that.
Also, FWIW, I have brought up to Alan Chambers , president of Exodus, the need for them to have some kind of accountability/monitoring tool for their affiliate ministries, of which ours is one. That way, any that may be utilizing questionable practices (like pushing heterosexuality as the main goal) could be identified. I hope Exodus is considering this.
October 19, 2009 at 7:51 am
Debbie,
I am so thankful that your ministry is actually directly connected to a local church. That is all too rare, though I know it is a goal of Exodus. I’m pushing hard for that in this area and have a couple of cover articles coming up in our state’s denominational news-magazine describing what churches can do in this area of ministry. Believe me, in this area of the country, the fact that the magazine is going to publish the articles in both print and on-line additions is a huge step forward. We still have many churches which are comfortable with their heads in the sand.
Thom
October 19, 2009 at 8:52 am
“We still have many churches which are comfortable with their heads in the sand.”
Yes, far too many.
October 19, 2009 at 8:53 am
Well, I think the number of comments here breaks a record.
Debbie–I personally think that Exodus itself tends to focus on change. Yes they have the slogan, “its not about heterosexuality”, but in fact there is a fixation on looking at developmental issues as causative in order to try to fix SSA. And I have found that many of the leaders, since they are married, assume that other can do the same if they just work the program hard enough. There are major problems with mixed messages within the ex-gay movement. I am very cautious about referring to ex-gay ministries as a result and will only do so if I know the leaders etc.
Kurt–I think there would be hostility toward gay people without the Bible or Christianity. As I mentioned in my previous comment many religions and secular folk have not been affirming of homosexuality. The non-Christian parents of my girlfriend were very disturbed–not for religious reasons. I find that most heterosexual people simply find homosexuality repulsive. Even people who support gay rights can feel this way inside though they are too PC to say so. For example, I reading a news comment from a young non-religous 20 something who basically said, “Yeah, I am all for gay rights, as long as they don’t hit on me.”
The problem is not with the Bible which teaches us to love our enemies. Its with mean-spirited people who use different tools whether that be sacred texts or other ways to vent their hostility toward the world through a particular scapegoat.
October 19, 2009 at 9:00 am
Karen,
I agree with you. I think we draw things way too narrowly if we conclude that anti-gay sentiments are only rooted in and continuing in the church, among Christians.
While reasonable Christians draw conclusions for the most part on their teaching and interpretations of scripture, non-Christians often come to conclusions out of fear and ignorance on the issue and react out of that, which can be more dangerous than just judgment and ill-expressed condemnation. Of course, there are many Christians who also react out of fear and ignorance, but at least they have access to a source of understanding and a path towards learning to react instead in grace and forgiveness with a heart open to healing and reconciliation.
Thom
October 19, 2009 at 9:10 am
Sorry for my lack of engagement, these last few days have been very busy (I am a full-time student, very heavily involved at church, and am actively looking for a job after getting laid off recently).
I have been enjoying the dialogue, finding it very interesting. I suppose I fall in line with Thom- I see God’s will for my life as precluding homosexual activity, and so forego it. To be sure, I would like to have the companionship and intimacy (sexual, emotional, physical) that such a relationship would bring about, but know that doing so would be a clear act of deliberate disobedience against the revealed will of God.
Kurt, let me answer the question you posed to others. If the Bible did not in any way restrict homosexual activity, explicitly or implicitly (by that I mean that when it referred to marriages, couples, intimate companionships it included in those references homosexual ones as well), I would be a much happier person, as I would feel no need to be celibate. However, it is a moot point in my mind, as the Bible does restrict homosexual activity, explicitly and implicitly, and so I am celibate.
-SC
October 19, 2009 at 10:31 am
“I personally think that Exodus itself tends to focus on change. Yes they have the slogan, “its not about heterosexuality”, but in fact there is a fixation on looking at developmental issues as causative in order to try to fix SSA. And I have found that many of the leaders, since they are married, assume that other can do the same if they just work the program hard enough. There are major problems with mixed messages within the ex-gay movement.”
Karen, you are right in that there are mixed messages. I think Exodus is slowly trying to moderate its message of hetero change expectation. Alan Chambers’ latest book is a step in the right direction. He is quite transparent in it.
October 19, 2009 at 10:34 am
How do I feel about the fact that my homosexual desires may not change?
I hear a lot of talk about how unhappy and stressed out the daunting—seemingly impossible—prospect of “changing orientation” makes people feel. And yes, the whole process is very wearisome, but that very fact boggles my mind because, ironically, it’s the state of not changing that has always proven to be much more a source of unhappiness and stress for me.
Having genuinely experienced varying degrees of change, I can honestly say I know how it feels to be at both places. And that if and when change does occur, it has always been liberating and rewarding.
Generally, I’m not one for guilt and self-condemnation over my same-sex attractions (although acting on it would be a different story), but when I’m not experiencing that healthy sense of change—in other words, when I’m wrapped up in sexual feelings toward a woman—the reality of my situation is that I’m living in the bondage of intense frustration and, to be honest, usually lust.
So I would have to say that the possibility of not changing just leaves me feeling very oppressed, entrapped and confused.
It is ultimately much more difficult for me in the long run and has proven to be very draining and exhausting to my entire being—emotionally, mentally and physically. That’s what this battle has been like.
But despite the fact that I do still struggle with strong homosexual desires and intensely crave that deep emotional and physical closeness that drives SSA for women, I’ve also been at a place for a long time where I am beyond any interest in a long-term sexual relationship with a woman. Nor do I want casual affairs or one-night stands (although that was the pattern I fell into in the past).
If I were to give in to my SSA there would be really no place for me to go in a sexual relationship with a woman. Even if God told me it was OK, I would not choose homosexuality for a lifestyle. And I don’t believe that it would “fix” me.
So not changing would still carry a lot of the same difficulties for me due to relational issues that continue to be unresolved in my life—much of which may always remain so. Sometimes the trick is to just grieve your losses and then move on to something else. God is always able to open new doors.
How does the fact that my sexual attractions may not change affect decisions I make for my life?
Naturally, I cannot predict the future to say how much my sexual attractions may change or not, but the answer is based on the pillars of my belief system coupled with realities of life that I am acutely aware of.
First and foremost, I remind myself to trust God rather than the world (gay propaganda, etc.) or even my own heart (overwhelming, recurring, and prolonged feelings and emotions, or lack thereof). “The heart is deceitful above all things…” (Jeremiah 17:9)
Change is seldom a destination or one-time event. More often than not, it is a journey or an ongoing process—like the tides and seasons. And for the most part, there is nothing that NEVER changes—except God. Everything else is subject to change at some point, to some degree, and in some way.
Solomon in his wisdom noted that for everything, there is a time and a season. So I do expect cycles of growth and change to occur in many forms throughout my lifetime.
Despite the intense struggles with homosexuality (it’s been really, really hard), I optimistically move forward to try and develop into the person that I know God wants me to be—inside and out. Like anyone else, I fall backwards alot too, but I know that God would not ask me to do the things he has not given me the power to do—such as being transformed by the renewing of my mind, and casting down everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of Him.
If this means taking little baby steps for the rest of my life, falling down and getting up a thousand times, or not getting very far or moving very fast, then so be it. I have tasted that trying is worth whatever freedom it brings, however small the victory may seem at the time.
So I stumble a lot, but I keep my irons in the fire and my eye on the prize. Which is what I would recommend to ex-ex-gays who have put blood, sweat and tears into trying to do what they believed was right.
It is also extremely helpful that I have always had the insight that no such beasts as complete homosexuality or heterosexuality actually exist, whatsoever, on what is referred to as the conundrum of human sexuality. Everyone experiences sexual attractions to both genders—however masked or redirected it may become. Both are innate to the human condition. So I realize that I am not “locked” into anything in terms of sexuality.
Deep in my soul I believe, and have experienced by God’s grace, a few simple truths (among many others) that keep me grounded in my darkest hours:
1) God made them male and female. (I am a woman and intrinsically capable of being drawn to, reaching out for, and experiencing loving feelings and attractions for a man rather than constantly fixating on my own sex.) Gen 5:2
2) His commandments are not grievous; and Christ’s yoke is easy and his burden light. (No matter how I may feel at the present time, a Godly, heterosexual mindset is in the long run easier to bear, less painful, and more rewarding than homosexuality.) 1 John 5:3 and Matt. 11:30
3) Love seeks not its own way. (Homosexuality is never a genuine expression of love toward another human being.) 1 Cor. 13:5
4) God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him; and patience has her perfect work. (God will not forget my labors.) Heb. 11:6 and James 1:4
October 19, 2009 at 11:59 am
Grace, I LOVE what you wrote! I wonder if you would allow me to re-post that at my own blog. Thank you for sharing that.
Debbie
October 19, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Debbie, thanks
… yes you may feel free to re-post it on your blog.
October 19, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Karen,
I think you are right in that there is more than just religious rules that affect attitudes towards sexual orientation. I was thinking how it would be if just the religious negs were removed. I’m not sure how that would help either, as it very well may not make any difference, as something else may fill in the blank.
Hi Jay, thanks for joining in.
Room,
After reading all of the comments again today, a question came to me that I hope you don’t mind me asking;
If you could take a pill that would erase all ssa attraction for the rest of your life with a no return policy, with no osa replacing it, would you say yes or no? And why.
Please contemplate carefully before answering.
AG Glad to hear you femmed it up! I tried drag on halloween one year, I had more fun than I thought a guy should. ; )
October 20, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Are we ever safe from that insidious, creeping fear that Jesus just won’t be quite enough?
October 21, 2009 at 6:44 am
Jennypo,
You pose an interesting question. I believe that’s where faith applies. Would we really want to be so safe that we got to the point where trust and hope were no longer necessary? We turn to Him in faith, believing He will be “all.” In return, He touches us and heals us. Even then, faith comes into play. That “insidious, creeping fear” is doubt.
I think Jesus is up to the challenge. We may always wonder if He is enough . . . but we know. Our wondering is based more on whether we have it within ourselves to follow through with Him.
Kurt,
I think the reason there has not been a lot of response to your question may be because we’ve all given up on the magic pill idea long ago. No, I wouldn’t take it were it real and offered. My ssa struggle has been a part of my development and a leading component of my desire for a closer walk with Christ in an effort not to stumble. It is part of who I am and, like everything else about me, presents an opportunity to serve and glorify God. If I turn it over to Him, I don’t need a pill to take it away. I’d rather manage it under His guidance than abolish it and remove one more thing that leads me to Him. Now, if God chooses to take it completely away . . . I’ll praise Him for answering my prayers. His will . . . not a pill.
Thom
October 21, 2009 at 7:56 am
“Now, if God chooses to take it completely away . . . I’ll praise Him for answering my prayers. His will . . . not a pill.”
Amen. We’ve got too many pills for ills as it is. They have become worse than the “cures” they are supposed to represent, in many ways. As we’ve already discussed, removing the spiritual sphere from the journey to wholeness does us great harm.
October 21, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Debbie,
Would I be correct in surmising that you believe that ssa is a disease that needs a cure, that can only be done by God? If so, would that not be something like “faith healing” similar to a parent refusing to take a sick child to the doctor (if there really was a pill that could take away ssa) and praying the illness away instead? Sometimes with deadly results as we do see in the gay community regarding sexuality?
Thom,
What I am finding Thom, is the content of “the struggle”, seems to make little difference. Tho mine may be non sexual, I still have the same bone to sharpen my teeth on bringing me closer and closer to God. Sex drugs betrayal loss whatever it may be for someone, there seems to be an elemental breath of fear we all must breath to learn and ascend the differences between love and fear.
The oddity is that the struggle seems to choose us, rather than the other way around.
Jennypo
That statement is really a good one and I have thought the same at times. When I do I focus on Jesus and ask for guidance with a good hit of love and it usually, but not always, works. I also have a physical love tho I have also been alone. Both have their ups and downs. I actually like both, but I also don’t restrict myself to either.
I also have wondered when we die, if this is just one big story we told to keep us in hope and not go insane. Streets of Gold or flames in hell really don’t appeal to me much, as those are physical items of which could easily be man’s imagination. And I don’t think the hereafter is physical.
Either way, working on an open loving heart and mind is always a great default. Don’t give up.
October 21, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Kurt,
You’re right in that we do all struggle with something. A life without any struggles would be an anomaly and certainly wasn’t demonstrated by the lives recorded in the Bible. I don’t think, however, that God wants us to live in fear, even for the value of experience. I believe fear is often the absence of faith . . . and if I work on strengthening my faith, fear relents considerably. When I look back at the decisions I have made in response to or under the grip if fear, I find I made some really bad ones. However, when I resisted the fear and relied on faith, His help was evident.
Granted, this is often viewed in retrospect, but it should help us as we grow.
The struggle does indeed seem to choose us in many cases. I certainly would never have chosen the ssa struggle . . . but there are others I would not replace it with. Regardless of the struggle — and I know ones for whom it is food, alcohol, drugs, self-loathing and on and on — the answer is still the same. We need to submit to God, live in His grace and yield to the Holy Spirit for the power we need to endure in the struggle. I didn’t say we would defeat it in all cases, but we can certainly endure and not be defeated ourselves.
I think Debbie was responding more to my comment that a pill is not the way to confront SSA. I think bringing it down to the level of a disease trivializes it actually. And this is not a trivial thing with which we deal.
Thom
Thom
October 21, 2009 at 1:52 pm
“Debbie,
Would I be correct in surmising that you believe that ssa is a disease that needs a cure, that can only be done by God? If so, would that not be something like “faith healing” similar to a parent refusing to take a sick child to the doctor (if there really was a pill that could take away ssa) and praying the illness away instead? Sometimes with deadly results as we do see in the gay community regarding sexuality?”
No, Kurt. You would not be correct in surmising that. You have jumped to an illogical conclusion about a metaphor. My statement would be metaphorical with regard to SSA. It is literal with regard to real pills that already exist, as you no doubt realize. Your question was metaphorical, was it not?
October 21, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Debbie,
Yes it was metaphorical. I consider any “struggle” be it with sexuality or drugs that causes emotional pain, an emotional dis-ease possibly in need of treatment.
I’m wondering if I were to say, snap your fingers instead of using a pill, would make a difference in your response?
In other words, why would God have to remove this problem with sexuality, if there were a way for you to do it yourself? (metaphorically)
There are a myriad of dis-eases we cure ourselves, what makes this one of sexual orientation, different?
October 21, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Kurt, I’m not sure what you are driving at. Are you setting up a straw man? Let’s just say I feel very much as Thom does. He has adequately answered your metaphorical/hypothetical/rhetorical question.
For what it’s worth, I took medication for five years for depression. I never felt as if I were removing the dis-ease myself, to use your terminology. God remained very much in the equation — the largest component, in fact. Do we “cure” anything on our own?
Wouldn’t a snap of the fingers be an allusion to magic or seeking a power decidedly not God?
October 21, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Hmmm . . . there might have been a few times when I wish I could snap my fingers and put my life more in line with God’s purposes instead of flailing about the way I do. However, neither wishes nor snapping can do that. In retrospect, I prefer the journey and the lessons learned and the opportunity to take those lessons into the lives of others. If there was an easy fix, I’d never recognize it. Such is my lot.
Thom
October 21, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Hi Debbie,
I think with all the many responses you may have missed my earlier request to you to see if I could contact you through your website or blog for more information about the program(s) your church has implemented for mentoring/support particularly in regards to SSA? I attend a mega church and not too long ago I approached some in leadership with my story and my heart to see a program such as this implemented within our church. Although the meeting went very well it appears to have dropped through the cracks and got lost in the shuffle as things often do within a larger church body. I know that they agree that there is a need for this, but no one, including myself, seems to know how best to address the issue or how to offer support for those who struggle with SSA within the church.
October 21, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Hi, Amazing Grace. When I responded to your questions (check 7:32 a.m. on Oct. 19 above), I called you just Grace. And then another Grace came in a little later and commented, and I wondered if it would appear as if that comment was responding to her (you both have had amazing things to say). Sorry if that was confusing. I gave my e-mail earlier, but here it is again: debbie@theformers.com.
Does your church have a licensed counseling pastor? It would be very helpful if that were the case.
October 21, 2009 at 7:47 pm
I would take the pill. Needless to say, it wouldn’t bring me closer to God! This one has to know. If one takes the pill because he thinks it will bring spiritual improvement, then that’s a mistake. I would take the pill not for that reason, but only because it would make life psychologically easier.
Whenever these questions are brought up, I mention the stories of some deaf folks who are so attached to their being deaf that they decline opportunities to have hearing. I think their choice, whatever it is, is morally neutral. But their reasoning behind their choice is not.
October 21, 2009 at 11:45 pm
Saul,
That’s interesting that some deaf kids would refuse to hear due to their attachment to being deaf. The term “comfort zone” comes to mind. Seems they are used to it. Is that the term that might describe what you are saying?
I would agree with your statement that saying yes would not bring you closer to God. But would you say it would make you happier, which could give you easier access and more time for God?
Thom,
Is it your experience knowing those that have ssa, that they started feeling negs about it when they were fairly young and/or as soon as they found out they were gay?
When I was 4 I had my first innocent sexual exploration in the front yard of my home with a boy the same age.
We were horribly chastised and that did set up some negs for me. I had to deal with what I detected in therapy to be violence from my mother, though she didn’t have a clue as to what she had done. I wasn’t spanked but more dragged into the house and yelled at. Very disconcerting for a little tyke that I was.
Just in general regarding “the struggle”, I am wondering if you ever feel like you are in a catch-22, as though it is an unresolvable conflict that may never go away completely?
I see now what you mean by Debbie’s take on things. You both are similar.
October 22, 2009 at 7:14 am
I find our responses to “take a pill” to be intriguing. On the one hand many of us would rather we never had SSA. Yet, on the other many of us would be reluctant to take a pill to take it away. For me, a pill would feel like it was artificially changing who I am in some way. I would be afraid it would make me asexual. It would take something from me. Perhaps, I cannot imagine heterosexuality and thus, all I know is that even if SSA is not right before God–at least I feel something. As a human being I want to retain my sexuality.
Also, there is so much of who I am that has come about because of the challenges this has brought into my life. I sometimes say that having SSA is one of the best things that ever happened to me because through it, God has made me a better person.
A pill, no. But, if God should work in me to make changes–then like Thom said I would be glad to have my prayers answered. Strange how that works, but true.
By the way–if homosexuality has any biological underpinnings and it is located, then medical science can do wonders, so I wouldn’t put it past science to create a pill someday.
October 22, 2009 at 8:04 am
Wow . . . 128 comments? You think this might be an important issue to a few folks?
Kurt,
I can mainly answer your questions for myself. My comments regarding other people will be pretty unscientific and based on conversations with other strugglers.
You asked:
“Is it your experience knowing those that have ssa, that they started feeling negs about it when they were fairly young and/or as soon as they found out they were gay?”
I never “found out” I was gay, though I may have questioned whether the label people wanted to put on me was deserved. I’m still not “gay.” I’m a man who struggles with “unwanted” same-sex attraction. Through self-examination, an honest look at history and life-affecting experiences, professional counseling and a responsive God who heard my cry, I believe I understand the reasons why the same-sex attraction evolved in me and even why I still struggle. But, I’m not gay. And no, that’s not denial. It’s acceptance.
Now, as to the negativity? First of all, the childhood sexual abuse I experienced was pedophilia, not homosexuality per se and was not an expression of my sexual preferences. My sexual desires came later, as a teenager. I would say that I did feel negative about it from the start. Negativity about oneself is pretty common for teenagers, especially if they sense that they are experiencing something that makes it more difficult to fit in with peers. Certainly my negativism was magnified by the messages around me and by the judgment and condemnation I saw others receive. Who lives in a state of shame and proclaims to be positive about it? Still, I believe my negative feelings arose mostly because I wanted to be the perfect Christian young man and I knew this was an area where I fell short of what I believed that meant. I have never questioned that acting on homosexual temptation is a sin. That issue was settled in my mind very early on. Knowledgeable sinning generally produces negative thoughts for a believer, and I was sinning on a consistent basis.
And then you asked:
“Just in general regarding “the struggle”, I am wondering if you ever feel like you are in a catch-22, as though it is an unresolvable conflict that may never go away completely?”
A catch-22 is “a frustrating situation in which one is trapped by contradictory regulations or conditions.” Based on that definition, I’m not in a catch-22. For there to be contradictory regulations, I would have to recognize both of those contradictory regulations as being valid. For me, as a Christian, the only valid regulations are God’s. So, while I have certainly felt trapped on occasion — particularly when tempted to just chuck it all, embrace the lifestyle and say adios or at least make major adjustments to all my beliefs in pursuit of a temporary freedom — I am instead free to pursue God and holiness with the promise of eternal freedom. I think I could only be in a catch-22 if I elevated someone or something or some idea to rest on the same high plain as does God. So . . . no, Kurt, I am not in a catch-22, which eliminates just one more excuse.
How about you? As a Christian man, can you really and truly say that God created you to be gay and find your oneness on earth — a visual of his entire ideal of creation — in another man? I know we’ve talked a lot about it, but as Christians our validity for our actions here comes from His Word . . . and it’s just not there. Wouldn’t you rather struggle with the imperfections of this world than adapt them to your temporary satisfaction? I think you may be creating a catch-22 to hide within. Several times in your remarks you have equated being happy with being better able to be close to God. I think the opposite is often true. He has comforted me in my sorrows and frustrations as readily as He has welcomed me in my times of joy.
Thom
October 22, 2009 at 9:38 am
Thom–I will admit I don’t get the whole ex-gay tradition of saying “I’m not gay, I just have unwanted same-sex attraction.” To me that is insider-speak that most people just don’t get.
My Oxford dictionary says “gay” simply means “homosexual” and “homosexual” means “feeling or involving sexual attraction only to persons of the same-sex.” There are not two definitions–one for those with wanted SSA and those who do not want SSA. We don’t have a word in our English vocabulary to denote two different types of homosexuals.
To me, it feels like a semantics game to try to avoid using the term “gay.” When someone says, “Are you gay?” Or “When did you find out you were gay.” They simply want to know–are you predominately attracted to the same sex, and if so when did you realize you were attracted to the same-sex?
October 22, 2009 at 9:56 am
Karen,
I don’t want to argue with Oxford nor be thought of as in denial, but I just don’t accept the whole label of “gay” as being appropriate for many same-sex strugglers. Maybe there is no appropriate word and maybe it is true that some people don’t get it when we say “unwanted same-sex attraction.” However, if I use the term “gay” to describe myself, those who are not “insiders” and able to be clued in to the nuances, will likely assume I accept myself as “gay” and see myself as “gay,” just because I am limited by the language. I don’t. I saw myself as sexually broken, another insider term perhaps, but appropriate to me.
I think when people ask “are you gay?” they are looking for more than a clarification of which sex you are predominately attracted to. And, the word “predominately,” which you used in your explanation, doesn’t line up with the Oxford definition you cited either, which used the word “only.”
Yes, there is confusion. You can say you were or are “gay.” When I say I am not, it is because I believe my same-sex attraction is a condition of my exposure to elements of fallen humanity, not a description of my God-created self.
October 22, 2009 at 10:26 am
Debbie,
When I was going through my homo to hetero dark knight of the soul, I felt as though I was living in a funeral parlor, grieving the death of my sexual self with the hope heterosexuality would become my norm. Support groups seemed like loss therapy. People started looking like Stepford mannequins instead of real people. Then I realized the truth. I was not dead. I was buried alive. It was then that I had to move away all outside inceptions of how “they, religion, people’s perceptions of God etc” thought “I” should live out my sexual life. Hence I returned back to my state of stasis, a homosexual male from birth.
This question of taking or not taking the “pill” is a result of that experience, nothing more. If I would have had the chance to take the “pill”, I like Karen, would have said no, as it would have meant I would have been asexual. And it’s better to feel something than nothing at all.
I think the question comes up that if we are going to feel something, should it be within the framework of being buried alive, or not? And if an aspect of the self is buried alive, would it be better to end that struggle my taking the pill, or not? I really do “get” the suffering principle, and respect it. I do it all the time and learn deep lessons which enrichens my experience of life.
Thom,
I am a homosexual. I know factually that there are three sexual orientations on Mother Earth that I fully respect, admire and support, gay bi str8. I fit into the gay category period, there is no error on that placement. It is solid as steel that no religious dogma will ever dent through a cultural war, again. I wouldn’t call myself a str8 male with ssa because I have no trace of str8 in me at all. I have homosexual brain chemistry running through all veins and every cell of my body at all times. So there is no catch 22, at all unless I want to entertain one, which I did for a short while. At that time there was no doubt there was a catch 22. I was damned if I did and damned if I didn’t.
My soul is as God created me in his image, and my soul is here to experience physicality, not judge it. The judging is the mental mind that deceives. My soul is God, and the closer I feel my soul essence, the more I “feel” God. Lack of separation if you will. The less my mind judges, the more I get to feel my soul essence.
My soul has determined my sexual matrix this lifetime. I am to experience that as that is the mission, gathering more data if you will. If I as a mere mortal physical being, do not obey the tenants of my soul’s journey, then I have to come back until I get the lesson learned.
Now one’s soul journey may be different from another. One’s soul journey may be to have conflict about sexuality, as there is great learning in everything. It may not be to resolve the conflict about the subject matter at all. The soul’s desire could be to look at conflict in general and glean knowledge, irregardless of how the conflict or “struggle” is brought about.
This is why I never judge another’s journey if I can help it, because we just simply don’t know their soul’s picture. But I do know that when a lesson is learned, the entire content of the lesson can be dropped as there is no longer need for that construct for learning. I learned my lesson about conflict and war and therefore dropped the construct of Religious Cultural War vs My True Sexual Identity. So now I am on to other things. Lesson learned.
Does that answer your question? Or just create more? I hope this fills in some blanks for you about my own journey.
October 22, 2009 at 11:40 am
PS. Thom you said, “How about you? As a Christian man, can you really and truly say that God created you to be gay and find your oneness on earth — a visual of his entire ideal of creation — in another man?”
I think the human body was designed to make more bodies. Of that I agree. I also think God created souls with free will, to have experiences, unfettered by human opinion. As a soul, I see bi str8 or gay, as options much like a buffet. The soul will pick the delicacy of it’s liking. That is why my sexuality I feel, is derived at the soul level and cannot be tranformed unless the soul so desires. I think this is why we see some people going from gay to str8 and visa versa in a lifetime, feeling fully ok with the transition. And some not liking that, depending on their lesson.
As a species I think we make laws so as not to hurt each other. Whether one’s orientation is gay or str8 does not deserve a law, by God or anyone else, as there is no hurting involved. I believe the sexual laws in the Bible are to keep each other from hurting each other, like pedophilia. This is what I think God was talking about in the Bible regarding gays.
Other than that, in my experience, bi str8 gay sexuality is simply an axiom of the human/soul experience, and needs full honor rather than full condemnation.
The species, as we well see with overpopulation, seems to be doing just fine.
October 22, 2009 at 12:26 pm
“Hence I returned back to my state of stasis, a homosexual male from birth.”
Kurt, you have accepted what you will never be able to prove — nor will I be able to disprove it. You have the freedom to believe with every fiber of your being that you are in God’s perfect will — for you — being a gay man. I am not free to condemn you, but I am free to make discerning judgments about your beliefs. I simply cannot accept what you do, and for me the whole of Scripture backs that up.
I empathize with your feeling of having been “buried alive.” I can because I could easily have been in that grave with you. I know today that some things we are meant to bury. I also understand now what being crucified with Christ means. It is to live to something more glorious than I could have imagined in my previous “life.”
As I continue to pray and reach out to the world with my own thoughts about the current Ugandan situation and how it impacts gays there, as well as those who feel compassion toward them and their plight, I am compelled to think about the hypocrisy that exists in our attitudes toward the sin in our lives.
Sexual immorality has many faces, and most of them are of the heterosexual variety. Heterosexuals who are promiscuous or adulterous still believe they are a notch above homosexuals because their sin is of the “natural” persuasion. Actually, that makes them even more culpable. None of us who have struggled with homosexuality ever chose to do so, but we have had the great confusion and shame that goes along with the basic feelings the straight world takes for granted. So their sin has a blatant rebellion to it that does not merit the compassion we can feel toward the same-sex-attracted person who is deemed a sinner just for wanting to act on what comes natural.
That said, we still don’t get a pass for acquiescing to the seductive voice of the Siren. Many others also have been seduced into wrong thinking. How many of the most loathesome pedophiles on earth were also victimized as children? How many victims of sexual abuse become sexual addicts of another sort? It stinks, but we are all the products of a fallen world in some way. But Christ says his yoke is easy, and he means for us to believe that and let him help us carry our burdens. And there is great hope in that.
At the end of this long day, we will have to simply agree to disagree about some things, Kurt. But I can accord you the same worth as any other person. I know God loves us both. And He is not yet done speaking to us by a long shot.
October 22, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Kurt,
Certainly I understand the reasoning behind not judging. We’re already judged. Our focus needs to be on reconciliation and redemption in recognition of the Cross of Christ.
I’m not judging you either. I can accept that you have made a choice and that you are satisfied with that choice. I believe that your choice might change in time if you seek to follow Christ. I believe that all of us need to practice what He taught, that we need to be long-suffering and patient when walking with anyone through sin. If we don’t exhibit those characteristics, we set ourselves up for self-righteousness, and He was very clear about that also.
I hope this does not sound harsh, because it is sad out of love for you, even though you do not consider yourself to be struggling with being gay. I think there are three kinds of people in the gay community. The first are the ones who are seeking truth. The second are the ones who are hardened and not seeking truth anymore. The third are ones who have been deceived and believe that being gay and being Christian can be melded into one identity, thus they are “gay Christians” and believe that acting out as homosexuals is not a sin.
Truth can be found. Hardened hearts can be softened. Deception can be dismantled. It is when we decide we are beyond the need to search that our souls’ thirst goes unquenched. I know you speak of yourself as one who has it all figured out, but I would hesitate to close the door.
Thom
October 22, 2009 at 7:34 pm
Karen you said:
“By the way–if homosexuality has any biological underpinnings and it is located, then medical science can do wonders, so I wouldn’t put it past science to create a pill someday.”
I just had to laugh out loud at this. It just hit my funny bone dead center. Not even sure why other than I think I just needed a good laugh with all the focused conversation going on. I think we could all use an hour or two of just fun and giggles.
Be that as it may, I do have a question for you.
Do you think the same “struggle” and learning would be there for a str8 woman, unclouded by sexual issues, who simply decided like Ghandi, to be celibate for God’s work to go further?
Ghandi had very strong struggle with his sexual urges, but I doubt he found them “abominable”. I think he simply wanted to focus his energy elsewhere and took a strive to make it happen. And with that focus, changed humanity forever.
What’s your hit?
October 22, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Thanks for the vote Thom. I can see you are trying to “fix” me, but I won’t do that to you. Or light a candle for you in the church. At least not to try and have you see things another way. I want you to go with your experience, and you are from all indications, doing just fine.
We do see things differently, as I could say that anyone who challenges their primary chemical-sexual makeup by listening to negative attacks and down loading shameful beliefs about ones self, is being self deceived. But all experience has it’s winnings so there it will be.
I think you may see your life as a myriad of rights and wrongs, good and bad, perfect and imperfect. I see my life as a flowing experience not to be tangled up in see-sawing if you will.
I used to think the statement “It’s all good” was such a pile of guk, because my life was not that great at the time. But now I see the statement is correct, if we get off the negative gravy train and view the world without judgment. It’s an acid test but it does pan out. Being totally free of judgment is one of the most exhilarating experiences the dualistic mind can have. Jesus taught “be ye like little children.”
That’s what it means, as children are non judgmental at a young age.
There is another classification of gay person; one who is balanced sane and happy, with no add-ons to their sexuality that put them under. They live as str8 people do, sexual orientation not being an issue.
Is it hard for you to believe that some people actually don’t struggle with their homosexual all chemical nature?
Some of the most brilliant minds are gay. If they were truly “deceived,” do you think they would be so gullible and stupid as to not at least get a hint?
Debbie,
You are so correct. We will have to agree to disagree, with a smile for both of us I hope. : )
October 23, 2009 at 2:47 am
“Debbie,
You are so correct. We will have to agree to disagree, with a smile for both of us I hope. : )”
Kurt, we serve a mighty big God. I can rest assured there is nothing better to do that to place you in His hands. And that I can do with a smile.
October 23, 2009 at 8:58 am
Kurt,
I’m not really trying to “fix” you. I pray for you, but my prayers are just that you will walk the path that God has established for you. I pray the same thing for myself.
You ask: “Is it hard for you to believe that some people actually don’t struggle with their homosexual all chemical nature?”
I’m not sure I am clear on the “all chemical nature” bit, but it is not hard for me to believe that some homosexuals don’t struggle with what they believe to be their true nature. It is hard for me to put myself into that place . . . but I see people in places that I would never see myself and they seem satisfied . . . and may view my personal satisfaction in this struggle with equal bewilderment. I spent forever one time in a conversation with a person who seemed very satisfied with his atheism. We parted friends, though our friendship won’t stand the test of eternity.
So, yes, I can see that you might be satisfied and not struggling. I hold back in thinking that will be your permanent status. I think one as searching as you are — searching, not struggling — will not abandon the questions.
Thom
October 23, 2009 at 6:07 pm
Thom, you said, “I spent forever one time in a conversation with a person who seemed very satisfied with his atheism. We parted friends, though our friendship won’t stand the test of eternity.”
What a great loss. If there was truly a friendship spark their, and it failed, then I would think someone judged in the situation and blanketed the friendliness with negative emotion.
This is why I don’t judge anymore about this God issue, as there are so many views, it tends to get too emotional and unsettling blocking everyone’s connection to Christ.
Thom and Debbie,
I will ask you this, and know I do want to keep our friendly exchanges with a good feeling in mind.
The data about God and gays (not to include bi’s) is pretty much in: he doesn’t change sexual orientation. The next data is that since he does not do this, it is now becoming popular to go celibate, which brings much conflict pain, a lifetime of struggle and sometimes suicide; albeit a few find it satisfying for their spiritual journey, though that’s not the norm. Both scenarios are harsh unsettling and sometimes deadly to many who go these routes.
Now I am a happy well adjusted gay guy with a good life under my belt, Christ in hand and God on my shoulder. And I am not deceived with guilt about my true sexual nature or chemistry. (my natural from birth sexual chemistry = “all chemical nature” i.e. in a blind study a male scent was held up to a gay guy and the scent was arousing via computer connected skin sensors, whereas when it was from a female it was not. Visa versa for str8s.)
With the above scenarios in mind, what would my life look like if God answered your prayers? I know you have a scenario you are praying for or putting me in God’s hands for. What is it?
This question is directed at you and your summations, not particularly what God might do or a “we will let God handle it” answer. So please answer from your own mind.
October 23, 2009 at 6:16 pm
PS When I said “popular to go celibate” I forgot to add, for life.
And hey, I don’t have it all together, I am not perfect, my career is a total MESS! MYYY never ending struggle.
It’s always friends family religion politics sex
love or money. ; )
October 23, 2009 at 6:32 pm
Hey Kurt,
First of all, my comment above about my friendship with the atheist not being able to stand the test of eternity was a little tongue-in-cheek. As an atheist, he told me he doesn’t believe in eternity. As a Christian, I do, of course. That’s why the friendship won’t stand the test of eternity. He’s not a believer and does not intend to be in eternity, Christ being the only way to get there — at least where I’m going. Now, I do still pray for my friend and he may yet see the light.
The prayers I say for you are the same as I would say for me when I am sinning, and particularly when I am willfully and habitually sinning. If my prayers for you were answered, you would not act out as a homosexual and it would be because you had come to the conclusion that doing so is sinful and not God’s intent for you. I don’t know if you would be as “happy,” which does seem to be a major goal of yours. But, you would be content and you would be experiencing grace. I think that is certainly as good as being happy.
Also . . . I think there may have been some misunderstanding regarding my personal situation as a struggler . . . some idea that I cannot be happy and struggle. That’s not so. If the absence of struggling with anything is a prerequisite for happiness, I think we’re all in trouble. Same thing for change. Data is a measurement, but not always a standard to determine right and wrong. Besides, the data is in concerning sin as well. It’s 100% that God doesn’t approve of it.
I really don’t want my sexual future decided by a smell test as opposed to the Word of God, which is certainly clear on the matter. It is what it is, no matter how many things we invent to create confusion. No matter what my nose might tell me, my heart would be in conflict.
Kurt, no one is more aware of the difficult conditions that can be brought into a person’s life in pursuit of change than I am. My goal is to build a better environment for working out these things with the support of other Christians and the love of the church . . . rather than presenting a confusing “open theology” that may spell relief to some, but is not truth.
Thom
October 24, 2009 at 5:52 am
Guess I’ll also weigh in, Kurt, since you have asked me to. This is becoming the never-ending conversation. But then I suppose that’s a metaphor for the way life should be.
I know we don’t want to have the dueling studies thing going on here as there is certainly no shortage of opinions on SSA causation or etiology. I have no doubt that there are particular brain differences between ever-gays and ever-straights. But there are also some demonstrated brain structural differences even in people who pray regularly. So take that for what it’s worth. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg, the behavior or the brain change?
From my research (as an author with a strong lay interest and not a scientist) into mental-emotional illness, I know the bio-psycho-social-spiritual spheres are impacted by or contribute to varying degrees to mental health issues. Karen could speak even better to this.
I can offer my family history as an anecdotal testament to the supposed genetic properties of mental illness (and I am not saying that homosexualtiy is such an illness, but bear with me). My dad, one brother and I all suffered from severe mental illness. Dad and I made complete recoveries, if you want to look at the pure medical side for a moment. We both had longstanding severe depression with even some possible bipolar elements present. My brother never recovered from schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type and died at the age of 45. My dad also was a severe alcoholic while my brother never got away from drug abuse. I did not go the substance abuse route, having been profoundly affected by their examples. Actually, it was never even a temptation for me. To my knowledge, I am the only one in my family, however, who had the SSA struggle. But it is possible my late brother also had it. We will never know for sure.
You asked me to speak from my mind. It is, of course, indelibly linked to my spirit. As a Christian, I know my mind has been transformed or renewed through my faith. I have lived in my own laboratory, so to speak, so I also recall quite well how impossible it seemed for me to use my mental capacity or will to pull myself out of the depths of depression. I could do it in the earlier stages of my illness, as I am a strong-willed person, but not in the latter. It was only the shreds of my faith I could hold onto, along with the intercessory prayers of others, that allowed me to even survive at that point as I very much wanted to die.
My recovery was a healing in all four spheres. I took that same spirit of overcoming, realizing it would not be in my own strength but only through submitting to Christ’s healing power, into my battle with SSA. I had some excellent professional Christian counseling from a longtime lesbian who had herself experienced a profound rebirth, by the way. I, as I have already stated, was not an ever-gay person. But that part of me was quite strong — frighteningly so, from an early age. I also was molested by a teenaged male cousin at the age of 8, for what it’s worth. I know very well that my lack of a loving, affirming dad played a role in my emotional instability and poor self-image. I had a complex relationship with my mom, which today is a wonderful one.
I share all that because I think it is relevant to your questions, Kurt. Could you be one of those people who has some biological roots to your sexual orientation? Perhaps. I know you believe that, and I can’t discount it. I am quite sure that some people have the deck stacked against them in seeking to change, perhaps for a multiplicity of reasons that we cannot understand. So, I will never seek to impose my experience on anyone else.
However, I also can say that I know in my heart of hearts some SSA folks can and do change to something akin to heterosexual, or at least functional enough for them to marry and be happy. It matters little to me whether or not we want to say they may still have an SSA orientation to some extent. The fact remains they have genuinely changed.
I also think the bisexual arguments can be too much of a cop-out. Clearly, I saw in myself a very strong homosexual proclivity reduced to virtually nonexistent, save for some memories that pop up now and then, as one would expect since I have not had a lobotomy.
Could I still be tempted by some latent SSA? I am sure I could be, if I placed myself in particular circumstances or willfully dwelt on old memories or thoughts. I figure if the apostle Paul felt it necessary to write what he did in Romans 7 about our duel nature and the proclivity to do the very things we do not want to do, it must have been a pretty important forewarning to us all.
I also know that Jesus Christ placed “blessed are the poor in spirit” at the head of the list of Beatitudes for a reason. We have to come to the realization that until we see ourselves in abject spiritual poverty apart from the whole of the gospel truth and Christ himself, we will retain enough of our self-will and human sin nature to hold us back in some essential ways from what we truly need in our relationship with Christ.
Sorry if this sounds a bit like a sermon, but you asked, and this is the only response I can give.
October 24, 2009 at 7:43 am
Thanks to both of you. Before I answer back, do you have any clue as to why over 400 species of the animal kingdom experiences homosexuality, without rebuff?
Keeping in mind that we as humans are bi-pedal animals, check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE
If others want to jump in the conversation, please do.
October 24, 2009 at 8:18 am
Kurt,
Interestingly, the video talks about homosexual experiences among some of the animals as being something they do while looking for the opposite-sex mate.
God made man in His image . . . something He had not accomplished in the creation of all of the other animals. The other species, while reflecting His creativity, do not express His creation the way Man and Woman do and the coming together sexually among animals does not reflect creation itself, as does the coming together of Man and Woman. God intended humans to be different than all other animals. God took the time to explain sexuality for humans, its purpose of One-ness in addition to procreation. He created the woman out of the man, something He did not do with other animals. I would rather base my sexuality on God’s purposes as expressed in His Word than on mighty lions or slithering snakes.
No . . . I don’t have a clue as to why some animals experience homosexuality. In their less-established life structure, I doubt that they point to a breakdown of the family, a distant father, a domineering mother, an abusive adult or any other external factor. I doubt they scratch their heads and ask “why me?” They are driven by various instincts in the absence of a God-connected soul. Fortunately for us, we possess a soul and we are connected to God, unless we choose to disconnect and go our own way.
I can’t justify doing something that I believe my God tells me I should not just because a mongoose might. The mongoose has no desire to honor God; no reason to expect strength from God, no God in which to place his faith. The mongoose’s responsibility is to be a mongoose.
Thom
October 24, 2009 at 8:21 am
Thom has given an answer that sufficiently expresses my thoughts, too. I will not belabor the point.
October 24, 2009 at 9:27 am
Debbie,
I certainly do find your life trek one of interest with no lack of drama. I do however, think we can get sexual abuse effects mixed up with our innate sexual wiring. There are so many difficult emotions in sexual abuse; isolation, depression, rage etc and the list goes on. I think for someone who may question their sexuality, those vexing emotions can get one thinking all sorts of rights and wrongs about their sexual nature if mixed up together.
In my case with my mother sexual abuse, I actually had a physical fight with her that ended my abuse. I was a tough 5 year old. It didn’t stop the ensuing effects, but it did let her know I would not continue. And I didn’t. And she stopped. So I was a bit different then most in that I took a stand for myself and said, “no more.”
Now if it had been a male molesting me, I probably would not have been able to contest. However, that may be why I have never been confused about my sexual matrix being gay. You and Thom sound like you were not in that position, as are most. As I said earlier, I knew my sexual orientation before the abuse started.
I don’t doubt that some people do marry str8 and can have happy lives even if primarily homosexual. But I also think you along with a lot of others, engage in mind control and brainwashing unnecessarily. The thing is, homosexuals, heterosexuals, somewhat like animals, also have happy lives getting married and sharing lives together. If one gets religion and/or severe anti gay programming, they may feel pushed to do just that.
Thom,
I think God made us in his image as souls, I do not think God is a bi-pedal creature like us, being made in that image. Unless of course, you believe a bi-pedal alien may have created the human race. If such were true, he could surely fly his space ship here and straighten things out.
I think animals may not be as smart as humans, but they are surely more intelligent and follow the master plan better than we ever have. No war, no discrimination, no pollution, perfect population control and the list goes on.
Do you think Thom, that they may be more intelligent than you are giving them credit for?
Now onto your previous comment.
You think I’m a sinner for being homosexual, (I don’t separate the beingness from the sex act in this case, just like I don’t separate the sin from the sinner ), so I think it might be good to give you my perspective of your sexual side. I don’t take offense and want to stomp off like many might, so I hope you will not do the same. A movie is always better with two watching. Grab a coke if you like.
Don’t take this wrong, but I think you are living in a group created fantasy complete with rose colored glasses about this issue. That’s why many people just can’t take your stance seriously. There seems to be a thread of growing up steeped in anti-gay rhetoric that I see you all are paying the price for. And I think your group meetings 12-step style are about upholding a belief you know in your core thinking is false, yet numbers help ease the pain of that reality.
Uri Geller can bend spoons with his mind, that’s pretty amazing, but it’s still a spoon nonetheless. What you call ex-gay is nothing more than a gay mental suppression exercise. As far as getting closer to God through suppression, well, people get close to God all the time without jumping ship on their sexuality, so people could find other ways to express their love for God rather than dumping his sexual matrix physically and condemning the whole of the gay community in the process.
You are basically homosexual from all indications, and you found a woman to love. That’s cool, it happens. I’ve done it myself. Str8 people find gay people to fall in love with i.e. Ellen and Hecke. And your wife found you. But your relationships are not the norm and from my perspective I’m sure there is probably more about your trek not present in these conversations.
When people tell Christians to “get real” I understand why. It’s because God’s world is real, and God’s world includes gay people. Always has always will. Just like the animal kingdom, we can be happy both gay and str8.
When you believe things like you are an “abomination” and homos are like killers and thieves, I see stupid uneducated manipulative bible writing str8 men using gay people as whipping posts. And most find such rhetoric ridiculous unfounded and discriminatory.
Str8 sexually fear based men don’t like us or our sex act Thom, and they never will. It’s no different from anti gay people today with the lies they spread to nix laws to give us rights. Those men have written gay history forever, bible included, up until now. And they don’t have to be Christian.
For a pro gay theology to be put into the Bible 2K and longer ago, would have been religious suicide and Christianity would NEVER have gotten off the ground. Not because homosexuality was bad to all people, but just enough to make it religious political suicide.
There was no separation of church and state back then, but there is darn good reason we have it now. It’s because religion is based on a hope and a prayer that what one is reading in “scripture” is right, and from “God”. We leave the rest to our own ability to “channel” God or be “psychic” to hear Jesus. That’s cool, I love that actually. But it’s not anything one can get a world wide unanimous ruling on.
From all indications, you go to group meetings to allow the str8 sexually screwed up men in your mind whip you, a good emotional whipping for thinking homosexual thoughts with your homosexual mind. Your over-thinking about gay sex comes from the fact you are homosexual and repressing it, from birth. This is why you had emotional craziness with guys in college, you were unbalanced about your sexuality and still are. I also see a petrified little boy hiding in his own home’s hallway if me and Jared were making love in your guest room.
From a gay person’s perspective who owns their sexuality hands down and does not run to str8 screwed up anti gay bible writers in a fret over it for validation, it is just rather silly yet painful to watch. Not because I don’t respect religion, I do, but in this case, it’s like trying to get validation the moon is pink. (I’m trying to stay away from calling you “gay” so please bear with me ; )
So when you say you are going to pray for me to stop the sin of homosexuality, it’s like water off a ducks back because you have no legitimate sane basis for your prayers. I think men, males, humans, wrote the Biblical gay cut-throat lines, which has nothing to do with God and everything to do with evil, and a str8 male based homophobic agenda designed to put us under the rug. And you Thom, are included.
Now I’m not judging you, this is only observation. I’m not calling you an idiot or an inflammatory obnoxious comment like “abomination” like Levi did. Not to smart on his part. I am totally respectful of your position and will tell you to have at it, and I won’t try to change a thing about you, because you aren’t asking for it and you don’t want it. You are pretty much in this biblio-sexual comfort zone from birth from all indication. I just think you overlay too much sexual reality with hope and fantasy. Your sexuality is not who you are tho Kurt, as I look at hearts and go from there. And I think you and Debbie have good hearts and mean well.
So this is what I think is going on with you.
Now. (<— is that silly injection meant to bring the conversation back to present time, or is it just a way of saying a period with a word?)
Before we go pop popcorn, could you please explain to me how "contentment" works if I leave my bf to be alone for life, stop making love to my fellow male human being sexually meaning I will never be touched, and basically give the bed space next to me, over to a big black book?
Somehow I think people that do that may be addicted to religion and hiding from their fears, and such reduces dramatically, common sense. Hence the term "loons" comes to peck at our doors.
So Thom, I've changed my mind about praying for you because I think you are a really nice guy, though I think your patience may be wearing thin. And I have had time to write this comment. So Thom, here is my prayer for you;
"God grant Thom the serenity
to accept the things he cannot change;
courage to change the things he can;
and the wisdom to know the difference."
Profound, truly profound, for all of us in times of struggle.
Now about that popcorn. Do you take butter salt, both or neither? Or did I hear the door slam cuz you need to go "process"?
October 24, 2009 at 10:02 am
Kurt,
I’m not going to slam the door or go process, but I am going to go get firewood because the day is so nice and there will be cold ones to follow. Then I’m going to watch OU hopefully beat Kansas in football. So, I’ll probably need to get back to you in a little while.
You ascribe a lot of motives that are based on your personal biases and you read things into me that are just not true, but comfortable for you to say because they support your stereotyping of those of us who choose not to fold our cards. I had not pictured you as the intolerant sort, but the judgment you finally unleashed is pretty pervasive and indicative.
I am neither addicted to religion or hiding behind fears. I am a Christian earnestly seeking God’s will and finding out I can find it nowhere else but directly from Him. Not in the animal kingdom and not in any man or the collective wisdom of men, not in the decisions of actresses and talk-show hosts. I can’t bend spoons, but I can do something much more awesome: I can communicate directly with the Creator. His wisdom is unlimited, both of the world and of me.
Your determination to not consider others’ options as valid is a bit of a surprise to me and doesn’t really align with some of your earlier writings. I think perhaps you are the one who is wearing thin of patience because you cannot get me and others to abandon our faith and trade it for a comfortable shoe. Your stance is obvious when you say that my prayers for you could not reflect sanity . . . and you are preparing a defense for the conversation’s end.
I will probably get back to you later. However, it’s not a lack of patience that would cause me to not address all of your points. It would be more a recognition of futility. That would sadden me, but the Creator who knows me so well also knows you just as well.
I know it may disturb you, but I think that most of the time when we keep asking questions it is because we are unsure.
I actually prefer popcorn with caramel. Life is salty and sweet.
Thom
October 24, 2009 at 10:44 am
“As I said earlier, I knew my sexual orientation before the abuse started.”
I do find it intriguing, Kurt, that you could be younger than 5 and even know what sex was.
“But I also think you along with a lot of others, engage in mind control and brainwashing unnecessarily.”
Really? How so. That’s a pretty harsh assessment. I believe you are discounting that one’s own spiritual connectedness with God has a bearing on seeking change.
“And I think your group meetings 12-step style are about upholding a belief you know in your core thinking is false, yet numbers help ease the pain of that reality.” Bull. Just bull, whether or not you take offense. You said this to Thom, but I am a group leader.
“What you call ex-gay is nothing more than a gay mental suppression exercise.” That’s the classic gay line of reasoning. What if there is some suppression going on? Are there any impulses in this world you believe ought to be suppressed, Kurt? We are impulsive sin-prone creatures by nature. To kill sin outright requires some suppressing of harmful desires, no?
Thom responded to you, “I had not pictured you as the intolerant sort, but the judgment you finally unleashed is pretty pervasive and indicative.” Yes, you have shown what I presume you want us all to see here as your true colors, Kurt. You know what else I think? I think this conversation (basically at this point among you, Thom and me) has reached the point of diminishing returns, and you are now arguing for the mere sake of argument. A pointless exercise.
I can’t see going on with it. I have spoken my piece. It also hijacks Karen’s blog, and I think we need to give it back for something more productive.
Peace to you.
October 24, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Kurt,
If you had mentioned it in a previous comment I missed it… I was surprised to just read that your mother sexually abused you. That is very rare.
But it does not make a difference that you had SSA prior to the abuse. I also experienced gender confusion at an early age prior to any physical abuse that I can remember.
Interestingly, during that time I also felt a helpless desire, and responsibility, to protect and care for my mother, who I percieved as very beautiful—and very weak.
One of my earliest memories of gender confusion occured shortly after an incident in which her boyfriend was roughing her up. I wanted and tried to protect her, but I realized that only a man—maybe Superman—was really strong enough to do that.
I did make him stop when I attacked him and yelled at him, but I was also well aware that he could overpower me in an instant and that was very scary.
If your mother sexually abused you at any point, I think we can assume that there were intense relational problems (vibes, so to speak) going on long before that ever happened.
Abuse is not a determining factor in homosexuality it is only a “contributing” factor. Many people who are abused do not develop homosexuality.
As someone who has experenced sexual abuse, I believe the problems do not really stem from the abuse itself, unless it is of a violent nature. (Children can be very strong and mature.)
The most serious problems arise from the shame resulting when caregivers do not handle revelation of the incident(s) correctly, or when the child has no one to turn to for help.
If it is the parent who is abusing the child, as was the case for you, that is perhaps the most difficult situation. A child is not only dependant on the parent for survival, but feels a deep loyalty to them.
So in addition to fear and confusion from the abuse itself, the child feels a sense of guilt for wanting them to stop or having to betray them by telling somebody about it. These emotions are overwhelming.
The dynamics of homosexual development existed in your relationship with your mother, regardless of whether or not the physical abuse ever occured.
October 25, 2009 at 10:30 am
Thom,
Well, I’ve never made caramel popcorn but there is a first time for everything. U of O?
Where do you hail from? Seattle here.
You said;
“I had not pictured you as the intolerant sort, but the judgment you finally unleashed is pretty pervasive and indicative.”
Debbie and Thom,
Please do not denote any of my statements as negatively judgmental, that was not my intent as they are only my perspective. You surely know yourself better than I, and I am glad to stand corrected if you find I am in error of your personal details. The ones you mention Thom duly noted.
I’m not quite sure how you saying with your religious beliefs the judgmental statement that (para) “I’m an abomination, a sinner, detestable and should be put to death”, equates the same with, (para) “I think Exodus and the like, exudes standards of the suppressive brainwashing of bipedal primate hominoids, of their natural trilateral sexual template” is the same. Many have observed that religious statement as a nasty below the belt inflaming riot starter. My comment on the other hand seems more like a clinical observation. If we don’t look the demon of anger in the face here, it will eat us both. So maybe you could share with me, how my statement is judgmental or inaccurate.
My intent in coming here was to engage with you to see how my tolerance was for being addressed a sinner, an abomination, and sexually “broken” which are all beliefs you guys hold about gays/gay sex in general. I feel good talking with you and find my old anger has been replaced with understanding rather than upset. I felt that if I could endure your perspectives with tolerance, then you could endure mine. Maybe I was wrong. I do have my observations, and I also am ok with yours, for you. Can you be ok with mine, for me? Even if it’s about your beliefs and activities?
I like you, and I am not trying to set up an end to the conversation.
I am tolerant of your position. Do I accept it for my personal world, of course not, and you don’t accept mine. As I have said before, we all have our paths to do and I won’t judge yours as it is yours and I do respect it is yours. And you can judge mine and I won’t flinch, it’s ok. Because I’ve done my emotional work around this issue.
But it does hurt me if you leave, because then the bad boys who wrote the nasty statements won. They separated people from people bringing brother against brother and sister against sister. I hope we don’t continue to let that happen here. Debbie you seem to have already left, that need not be and I hope you reconsider. Either we are bridge builders in the sight of difficulty, or we become powerless in our anger. The weakest link breaks the chain, always.
I’m truly sorry for your pain, and that I have to call you on those biblical statements, but they are what they are. We don’t have to fight over it, just understand each others positions and leave it be. Does that even work for you guys?
I don’t react negatively anymore and feel I can have this conversation without getting riled up. So if you have upset come up around what I say, maybe there is something there for you to look at. I found many unrelated emotional feelings were all related to unresolved sexual abuse. Any “attack” for anything ignited that sex abuse “attack” fire in me. So if my statements effect you, does that mean that as Christians we have to part ways? It’s just a belief, just like yours. You call me many bad things, yet I come to shake your hands and say hello, engage and discuss, give my point of view and observations. Is this to be a one way my way or the highway communication?
My questions of course are for inquiry and unsureness, but not for sexual reasons. They are for understanding emotional attack in myself that I am engaging at all. Maybe now you could care less, as I am not available for transit to your ways. I never was, and I thought I was clear about that.
If we are going to live in a 1000 years of peace, do we not need to be able to address our perceptions and not react, flatlining our upsets? I could ask you to forgive me and apologize for peace sake, but that doesn’t do any good for the next person that comes along and you feel the same way. It’s an internal adjustment we must personally make in order to not feel harmed by others all the time.
We are an insecure species. But I think it’s time we all really look at taking emotional responsibility for our own chosen reactions, ascertain why we do them, and not separate when we can’t deal with them, but talk it out and stay united. More strength, less breakdown.
The bottom line is, can you hear my “good and bad” perceived thoughts about you, even if they are perceived as inaccurate statements, and still break bread together as I have done with you and your good and bad perceived inaccurate thoughts about me? Or not.
The Prince of Peace will not show up on earth, until peace shows up in ourselves. So can we talk this out?
October 25, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Kurt,
I live in Norman, Oklahoma, so I was talking about the University of Oklahoma Sooners. I’m originally from Texas, near Dallas, but have been in Oklahoma quite a while now.
I wanted to start with your closing statement about the Prince of Peace and when he will “show up.” I’m confused by your meaning. If you mean Christ’s return, I’m not sure how you tie that to His waiting until peace shows up in ourselves. If you were meaning it figuratively, I think you should explain a little better. I think in an earlier post you also mentioned what you might have been in a former life. Can you clarify that also? It may be that our differing beliefs are making it difficult for us to communicate.
You are being disingenuous and inaccurate in your descriptions of Debbie or my religious beliefs, which should be very similar to yours, as we all profess to be Christians. When you say, “I’m an abomination, a sinner, detestable and should be put to death,” you are talking about what the Bible says about sinning. However, you are using it in your comment to imply that you have been set apart because of your decision to engage in a sexual lifestyle. You are a sinner. So am I. So is everyone. We’re both worthy of death, but the blood of Jesus Christ paid that penalty for us. Those are my beliefs, more accurately stated. I have not personally called you detestable, but the Bible is clear that God detests sin and that sin is an abomination. None of us can live in faith and conveniently re-write the Bible to fit our desires. If we could do that, Christ’s death of the Cross and resurrection would have been unnecessary. We would just update the Word and carry on.
I’m all for unity, Kurt, but not if it means compromise. . . not when it comes to God’s Holy Word, which He gave to us to help us live lives that honor Him and demonstrate His love for other people.
I refer to myself as sexually-broken and I believe that description does accurately fit for you as well. So, no, I can’t just say you’re OK. You’re broken. Peace is not truly the end result of just telling someone what they want to hear. That would be more a reflection of not caring.
Yes, we can shake hands, break bread and live peaceably with one another. It won’t preclude me from continuing to pray that you will one day be stronger than the homosexual temptations that you have determined to normalize. I pray for strength in that area for myself.
I didn’t write the Word of God. He did. And I can’t change it to make your sin go away. If I had been able to do that, wouldn’t I have done it for myself? If you are hoping — for the sake of peace — that I will say it is “OK” for you to have sex with men, it’s a lost hope.
Thom
October 25, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Grace,
After doing much regression work with a laser clear therapist, the truth about the sexual abuse and the basis for my sexual nature became clear. The information was surprising and helpful. Just to clarify, you said you had sexual confusion before your abuse. I had sexual knowing, no confusion. Some people have reported knowing such, as early as 3.
I don’t think the abuse from mothers to sons is rare, I think it just goes highly unreported due to repression. If a husband found out his wife had taken his son in such a way, there could easily be murder.
I’ve always believed the most trusted person in a child’s world is our mother. I also now believe the shame of being male and having a mother overcome us abusively is so structurally devastating to the male ego, it gets slammed deep into the unconscious at all costs as soon as possible. I have great recall of my entire childhood, always have. But the sexual abuse was a true landmine, and I stepped right on it when the current cultural war started as it all coupled together in regression therapy with another issue around rage, with betrayal as the foundation.
Since sexual abuse seems to be common in this group, and sexual orientation and past lives has come up in question, I will share with you the findings from my notes of doing regression therapy from approximately a year ago that I believe to this day, saved my life. This session is post sexual abuse resolution, and those details I prefer to keep to myself. But I will share with you that which I do feel comfortable.
After several sessions to resolve sexual abuse, the subject of sexual orientation came up during a regression, unplanned, as it was not a focus of my therapy. My focus was to know why I was so enraged with gay Christians who “acted” str8 during our strong cultural war.
I was deep in regression and the therapist asked key questions of my subconscious level, of which I have vague memory, but enough to always remember the gist if not all the words. My therapist kept good notes, which was helpful later on.
About half way through a session we came to a stopping point with our regular work on sexual abuse. There was some more time and I was still “under.” So free time was open for asking misc questions, but they ended up explaining a lot and leading me into my next phase of therapy that was religio-sexual based.
My therapist asked if my sexual orientation was derived from my sexual abuse, the answer was no. She also asked if it was from mother of origin, genetics or family members, still no. Then she asked if I was bi-sexual in-utero, answer yes, 70(gay)/30%. Then she asked how my sexual orientation came to be bi sexual. The answer was “soul transmission”. She asked 3 times and got the same answer. “Soul transmission.” Then she asked why the soul did that this lifetime. The answer was “to resolve past life trauma issues when living a homosexual past life.” Then she asked why I lived as a homosexual in a past life. The answer was “soul experience.” Then she asked what was the century of the traumatic gay past life. It was “1400’s, France, Catholic Monastery, Brother (in training for Priesthood), sexual interactions with Priests and Brothers, got caught, sentenced to solitary confinement until death.”
At that moment the “past life” played the entire audio/visual tape in my mind while under regression hypnosis. It was also a duplicate of an exact dream I had had a few times over the years, which had always woken me up in a sweat.
It was devastating and I had to work very hard to rid myself of the slow-death issue for being gay and sexual within a religious order. Hence huge trauma and rage in current time began to surface when the gay cultural war started via attack through religious factions. I felt attacked as if it were a life and death issue, but I didn’t know why. My reactions were too strong, too irrational, and out of the ordinary, bringing up the need for therapy. Until that point, I had no buttons or confusion on sexual religious attack.
Then the therapist asked why I came in bi-sexual and didn’t come in fully gay. The answer was, I most likely would not have been able to handle it and may have committed suicide. The str8 piece of the soul transmission was activated for grounding only. Now I understand why. It worked. Barely.
This is what brought me to this room, to do a litmus test on my rage at unyielding hardened gay religious factions. It was mainly because of the rage of being slow fry murdered in that past life by gays who had to pretend to be straight save being ex-communicated and banished from society. So currently, it had to be gay people I had to contend with to find out my reaction, as the Bishop who sentenced me to solitary confinement until death, along with the Brother that fed me every day, were both gay.
I had little to no reaction to str8 hardcore anti gay religious people. But if a gay Christian pretended to act str8 and called me a sinner for being gay, it would bring up the betrayal rage of the gay clergy who sentenced me to death in the 1400’s. Hence rage at gay Christians portraying to be str8 to gain acceptance and religious inclusion, though a total lie. And I was one of them in that past life, so I understand it very well. It was hypocrisy at it’s ugliest. Clergy always had to lie. They still do. Now I am free of the devastating emotions that almost had me end my life.
My mother had nothing to do with determining my sexual orientation. And we actually had no negs later on in life, though we were never “close” like some gay guys are with their moms. I now believe sexual orientation is fully orchestrated by ones soul and one’s physical brain lives with that soul decision. A brain cannot change a soul’s larger infinite mind, but the other way around can occur if one follows the soul’s program.
It’s so clear to me now, as I have become so ment/emot clear by doing high quality no dogma therapy. It was the only way to get to the truest “me,” my God soul piece. Therapy enshrowded with religious dogma would most likely have been disastrous considering the content, or I may have simply stagnated in therapy and never let the content come up. It had to be a clear page to work, though I do have my own Christian religious beliefs etc. I just felt it was the best way to go at the time and I am happy I went with my “gut”/soul intuition.
So Grace, you sound knowledgeable about the subject so there is some data for your meta-files. Oya-vey. (big sigh)
October 25, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Sorry to interrupt the conversation, but I just wanted to ask Saul a question (if he is still following this post).
I too am an Orthodox Christian struggling with same-sex attraction. You mentioned in your first post that we should read the ancient fathers of the Church to gain a better understanding of the passions and how to deal with them. Regarding SSA, do you mind sharing any resources or writings you’ve found to help you struggle with this particular passion?
Thanks a lot,
M.
October 26, 2009 at 2:36 am
Kurt,
Thank you for sharing the things in your heart.
Certainly, God knows much more about our lives than we ever will. But in His deep love for us He gave us His Word as a spiritual guide. His son Jesus Christ is the subject of it from Genesis to Revelation.
On the day of Pentecost, the gift of holy spirit was poured out for all who believe that Christ is the Son of God and died for our sins.
God has given us a wonderful thing. Many times, however, we look in different places to learn about spiritual matters. When what we need to do most is go directly to His Word and look and see what is involved.
In John 14:16-17, Jesus says, “And I will pray the Father and He will give you another helper [also comforter] that he may abide with you forever—the spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive…for he dwells with you and will be in you.”
In verse 25 Jesus says, “These things I have spoken being present with you. But the helper, the holy spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all things that I said to you.”
By these verses we can see that holy spirit has a purpose in our lives; it is designed to do two things:
1) To teach us. (Paul reiterates this in Galatians 1:12 when he says, “For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.” We also see it in Acts when the disciples spoke in tongues.)
2) To call to remembrance all things that Christ said. (This implies that we first have to have heard what Jesus said. The only way available today is through the Bible.)
In John 15:26 (NKJV), Jesus says, “…the spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, he will testify of me.” And in 16:14 he says, “He [the holy spirit] will glorify me, for he will take of what is mine and declare it to you.”
So we know that the holy spirit is our helper (also comforter). It is of truth, not of error, or any other thing. And that it specifically testifies (bears witness) of Jesus Christ and declares what belongs to him.
We also know that holy spirit dwells inside of us at all times. And that as it teaches us, no other person acts to channel it in any way. Ephesians 2:18 reiterates the fact that we have direct access to God: “For by him [Christ] we both [Jews and Gentiles] have access by one spirit to the Father.”
Additionally, scripture gives us insight to the nature of our souls:
-So then each man will give account of himself to God. (Romans 14:12)
-And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many (Hebrews 9:27-28)
-But for him who is joined to the living there is hope…but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share of anything that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:4-6)
You stated that you came to this blog to test how well you have resolved negative emotions from past experiences.
The Word of God is what produces genuine fruit of the spirit in our lives. I encourage you to stay focused, as much as possible, on the priceless treasures to be found only in scripture.
October 26, 2009 at 5:44 am
Kurt, your regression therapy narrative is certainly interesting, but also quite bizarre from a Christian perspective as it brings in a Hindu-like reincarnation belief (which you had mentioned earlier). I thought you had been representing yourself as a Christian, but it appears your religious beliefs are of a New Age smorgasbord variety. If so, that means looking for the true-faith common ground in our discussions is also like walking through a minefield.
October 26, 2009 at 7:15 am
Debbie–I just wanted to encourage you to refrain from using terms like “bizarre” to describe someone else’s experience. Its condescending.
Also, Kurt, I have to agree that you have started to resort to putting things people’s mouths that people are not saying. As Thom said your one post was less than charitable. However, I do appreciate you sharing your story and your experiences with regression therapy.
To Thom, Kurt, and Debbie–I would like to suggest maybe taking a break from the conversation. I feel like its beginning to lose its productivity and that the conversation is starting to go around in circles. At some point we have to simply agree to disagree.
There will be other posts in the future so the dialogue will continue and we don’t have to fit every possible conversation in here. I think the horse has been pretty well beat. Though I do appreciate all the great thoughts!
October 26, 2009 at 8:02 am
Thanks, Karen. I tried making the point earlier that it was time to wind this down.
October 26, 2009 at 9:22 am
Thom,
I get your message and I have these answers. I like our communications, appreciate you as a person, and go Ducks! U of O grad here born’n raised in Portland, OR. Funny we share the same acronym, but they are different teams. However, we all like caramel popcorn. ; )
Grace,
Thanks for your input. I do think it’s important to acknowledge that all shoes do not fit in one box. Jesus presides over us with great love and acceptance and is quite accessible, or I never would have gotten therapy. That was His recommendation as I actually hated the thought of it prior to His pushing. But I listened and prevailed in the end thanks to Him. But I certainly do see what you are saying.
Debbie,
You seem to have angered yourself quite emphatically. As some therapist’s say, “it’s a jungle in there.” You, as I was, could still be suffering from unresolved sexual abuse emotions. I used an EFT (emotional freedom technique) therapist to resolve all the anger. It’s an amazing tool, easily learned and worked very well.
I will pray for your resolve on all levels so you can love God’s creations and their ideas without a hitch. I do not want for anyone to suffer.
Karen,
Thank you for your post with questions that obviously got a lot of people thinking. I also appreciated your comments as I think you carry much wisdom.
Thanks room for allowing me to do my spiritual/emotional checkup. Making lemonade out of lemons works, though squeezing hard sometimes can be harsh.
Wishing you all wisdom insight joy and above all, laughter!
Peace out
October 26, 2009 at 12:19 pm
“You seem to have angered yourself quite emphatically. As some therapist’s say, “it’s a jungle in there.” You, as I was, could still be suffering from unresolved sexual abuse emotions. I used an EFT (emotional freedom technique) therapist to resolve all the anger. It’s an amazing tool, easily learned and worked very well.
I will pray for your resolve on all levels so you can love God’s creations and their ideas without a hitch. I do not want for anyone to suffer.”
It would be interesting to hear Karen comment on how my using the word “bizarre” was condescending and this entire statement isn’t. Whatever.
October 26, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Kurt,
I’m going to keep you in my prayers. I agree that we have probably exhausted the benefits of the back-and-forth in this context. If you ever want to contact me, just go to my blog and you can get my e-mail address there.
I think you have misjudged Debbie. I’ve read many of the things she has written here and a number of other places. All of us who have struggled have some residual from the experiences that produced the struggle and from the things we’ve gone through in seeking resolution. It produces a sensitivity that God can use to His glory. However, I’ve seen few people who seem as resolved as Debbie does. Again, Kurt, I sense that you reach a certain point where you decide that if someone is not speaking your language or reflecting your insight, they have failed to evolve to your level of enlightenment.
In truth, Kurt, I think you need to realize that while we all struggle with temptations, pride may be the most dangerous of all. I urge you to be careful and remember that God’s grace is given to the humble.
I am your friend and I hope we truly are brothers in Christ, despite some obvious differences in interpretation.
Thom
October 27, 2009 at 12:08 am
Thom,
Thanks for your comment and I will surely keep you in my prayers also, along with this blog and all who grace it’s doors.
I’m sure we will meet again soon.
Bless you brother,
Kurt
October 30, 2009 at 1:10 pm
I dont mean to sound harsh, but this might be our cross to bare or our thorn in the flesh. After years of struggling with a run-away mind concerning hetero sexuality issues (but no sin with another person), I have now been “cursed” with homo ones, and the hetero ones have disapeared. I get depressed as a person who has identified as hetero only bieng alone with no outlet (I am 29), this has just become unbearable. Its been maybe a month or 2 since I have been able to admit it to myself. The real scary part is that I did almost everything I could to not sin with another when I was completely herero, but now, it seems I am going down the road to do whatever it takes to sin with someone now that I guess I am Bi. I say all this to say, I cant be alone for the rest of my life, I cant survive that. At the same time most christian hetero woman (such as I was) have been dieing inside with no husbands, and will continue to do so. No one is allowing for them to “be fufilled” outside of the confines of marriage, which means that same-sex/ bis dont have that choice either. Also reading that there is rarely ever long lasting hcange has made me dealthly scared now. If I told you the things I did to avoid sinning with a guy you would laugh and cry. If I told you what I have started to consider doing concerning a girl, you would laugh and cry. I feel like the children of Israel between pharoah’s army and the sea, if only there were a moses with a rod I would be ok- all I would need is the faith to walk through that water knowing it would part. But for the lesbians (as a former 100% hetero and now a 50%/50%) there are few men in the church, and they are more shallow and illusive than non-christian men, and the best hetero girls will get them, so you (and I gues I) are screwed. I dont know what this all means. Like I said, I need moses and the rod.
November 3, 2009 at 11:45 am
Now This–thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. It seems like it must be confusing to have your sexual attractions change like that.
You wrote: “Also reading that there is rarely ever long lasting hcange has made me dealthly scared now.”
That fact that you have experienced such a significant shift already makes it very likely that your attractions will shift again. Sexuality is more fluid in women. So it does sometimes occur that women who only noticed hetero feelings might at a particular time in their life experience some homosexual attractions. I definitely would not put you in the category of women who can’t experience change. Those who have persistent unchanging attractions usually notice that they are different from a young age and have never had hetero attractions. Your story sounds much different. Also, if you are truly bi, then there is always the potential to be attracted to a guy.
But, in any case, none of us are guaranteed marriage or a good sex life. And that is why our lives have to be about so much more than that. Usually when I am lonely or have stress in my life is when that struggle of singleness is harder. Do you have deep intimate friendships? Are you well connected in community?
Have you connected with a counselor or spiritual advisor who can walk with you through some of this? It sounds like you could use some support, encouragement and guidance. Do you have that at your church?
I know it is a real challenge. And, temptation can be strong. God understands that too. We have to remember to give ourselves a lot of grace and patience. Hang in there.
November 11, 2009 at 9:15 pm
Ann Landers asked, a long while back now, ‘would you rather be straight?’ and in all honesty, I had to write back to her, it isn’t about being in the majority, in that way, it’s about honesty, and living an authentic life.
If I am authentically attracted to others of my same sex, it’s biology, it’s brain chemisty, it’s hormones and the hormonal center in the brain, which is physical, and as far as I’m concerned, it falls under “render unto Caesar’s” – if my body wants what my brain tells it is attractive, I must honestly respect “my own” messages.
November 11, 2009 at 10:07 pm
[...] http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/what-if-you-dont-change/ [...]
November 12, 2009 at 8:02 am
Walker,
Our brains are as imperfect as the rest of us and we can’t always yield to hormones and chemistry. We can victimize ourselves that way. My brain tells me that Twinkies are attractive. My father’s brain obviously told him that wine, women and song were very attractive. We are more than our brains.
Andy Comiskey said: “Desires do not define us; God’s evident design in creation does. And what God wills, He enables. We cast ourselves upon His grace constantly in our effort to love well. According to His definition, not ours.”
I have a fair amount of confidence in my brain, but greater confidence in God’s will and the infinite power of His grace.
Thom
November 19, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Hi Karen,
May I ask, why do you think sexuality is more fluid with women than men? Did you speak based on experience, or evidence? Does that mean that all men do not experience fluidity at all?
(Yes, I am a young gay male who wishes to live a life of celibacy, but there is still a little hope in me that maybe change is possible. I know that change is unlikely and am slowly moving onto acceptance of this fact, i.e. celibate life isn’t as bad as most people put it, but I just want to know if this small hope I have is misplaced.)
Ken
November 20, 2009 at 5:24 am
Hi Ken, thanks for stopping by. As for women and sexual fluidity, there is a book by professor of psychology and gender studies, Lisa Diamond who wrote, “Sexual Fluidity: Understanding Women’s Love and Desire.” This goes into talking about women’s fluidity. So far research suggests that some women are more flexible. However, it is all very individual–for example there are some lesbians who have very persistent same-sex attractions who never experience fluidity.
As for hope of change, I will be writing a follow up post on this one that talks about my own thoughts on how we respond to lack of change or desire for change. But, in brief, I think we simply live life with an open palm. We cannot predict the future. Perhaps God will bring change. Perhaps not. The unknown can be a gift in this regard. Too much hope leads to disillusionment, no hope can lead to despair (at least in the early stages–I do think acceptance with lack of change can come so that it is not so troubling).
There are men who have managed to develop bisexuality or spousosexuality. You might try talking with Jeff S. who comments here (his blog is also listed under the narrative tab above). He has SSA but did end up getting married. He also helps to lead a men’s facebook group that you might be interested in. He can probably give you a better sense of things from a guy’s perspective.
But, I do know that the moment we make change our primary hope and goal that it can set a person up for much anguish, and ultimately is the primary reason why people return to homosexuality. Our hope in Christ, and not our circumstances, is always our best bet.
November 20, 2009 at 10:28 am
Thank you Karen.
I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. You are indeed an inspiration to all Christians suffering from SSA. As of now I am where you were, anguished, mainly because very few (if any) people know about my condition. And I really have very little hopes of changing, but looking at the single adults around me, in church, living happy lives (even one pastor who is spearated from his wife, I assume he is also celibate for a while now), I am starting to accept that singlehood is not necessarily a bad thing as other people put it to be. Will be following your blog often!
Thanks for the reply, God bless.