Even Jerry Falwell’s ultra-conservative Liberty University has gay students. In 2007, at least forty LGBT students at Liberty sought help from the campus counseling center. I read that surprising stat in Kevin Roose’s insightful book The Unlikely Disciple. Roose went undercover for a semester to get the inside scoop on “America’s holiest university.” Among other things, he writes about a discussion he had with one of the school’s counselors, Pastor Rick:
Earlier this year, Rick tried to start a group therapy session for his gay disciples (he called it Masquerade), but no one showed up for the meetings. ‘They didn’t want to reveal their struggles,’ he says. ‘We’re hoping that next year, we can tell guys they don’t have to be afraid.’ So now, he meets regularly with forty gay Liberty students in one-on-one sessions . . . He says his job, first and foremost, is to provide emotional support for gay Liberty students. ‘The problem is, the church has been too busy condemning kids for having these feelings, and now they won’t come for help.’ A proper approach to gay conversion, according to Rick, involves massive amounts of prayer and Bible study, as well as focused mental exercises . . . ‘It’s important to figure out where this same-sex attraction comes from,’ Rick says. (pp. 184-185).
This summer the Journal of Psychology and Theology published an article by Yarhouse, Stratton, Dean and Brooke entitled Listening to Sexual Minorities on Christian College Campuses. A sample of 104 undergraduates from three Christian schools completed an anonymous survey. Results showed:
- 70% reported they first became aware of their same-sex attraction, on average, by 12.9 years old
- 75% had not disclosed to their mothers
- 82% had not disclosed to their fathers
- 85% had not disclosed to siblings
- 42% had not disclosed to a friend
- 93% had never disclosed to a youth pastor
- 75% felt there are, to a “great extent” or “very great extent,” attitudes on campus that make it difficult for students with same-sex attraction
- 75% knew the campus counseling center was a resource, but only 14% utilized it
- 39% knew campus ministries were a resource, but only 1% utilized them
The majority of these students did not affirm a gay identity, and valued the support of the Christian community to live congruently with their values. This was the case despite experiencing negative attitudes from fellow Christians. Interestingly, few students cited faculty and staff as the source of negativity. Most antagonistic attitudes came from peers.
As the above statistics indicate, many gay Christian college students are still closeted, particularly to their family members, youth pastors and counselors. When disclosure does happen it is usually with friends. However, some young evangelicals are beginning to speak up. Recent Wheaton College graduate Wesley Hill has published a couple of articles on homosexuality. And another Wheaton grad, Steve Slagg, has also gone public and posted an excellent piece about his college experience. He writes:
I came to Wheaton desperate for answers, knowing my faith and sexuality seemed to be at odds, but having no idea how to reconcile them. I hoped I would find Wheaton to be a place that was ready to help me answer some of those questions. I didn’t even know what that would look like at the time. I think I hoped I would find an environment where people felt safe to be open about their sexuality, and where someone more experienced than me could take me aside and tell me what it was I was supposed to do with myself. I didn’t quite find that.
What I did find was a community of mostly straight friends who admitted their ignorance with regard to my struggle, but promised they would be alongside me no matter what. I also met several other same-sex attracted students who had the same questions I had: Did we have to become straight? Was that possible? Were we destined to be lonely? Surely we weren’t the only ones in our situation, right? What I didn’t find was answers, or even any well-worn route toward them. Now I had friends, and we were confused together—we didn’t know what to do with ourselves, and nobody else was telling us. There seemed to be no protocol for us.
And . . .
In April, a gay activist group called Soulforce visited our campus as part of its Equality Ride, which visited dozens of institutions across the country to protest their policies regarding homosexuality. In preparation for the Riders’ visit, the college hosted speakers, forums and events to educate the student body . . . On one level, this was exactly what I’d been waiting for. Wheaton was suddenly a flurry of information about same-sex attraction, and some of it was extremely helpful. But at the same time the attention on the issue was extremely alienating for those of us [with same-sex attraction]. Despite the floodlights being thrown on the issue of homosexuality, we the homosexual students were still in the dark. Not one of the sessions reached out to same-sex attracted students or illuminated straight students to our struggle. We were occasionally mentioned as a liability—the concern seemed to be that one of us would hear Soulforce’s rhetoric and be won over to the wrong side of a moral debate.
The Christian community talks about homosexuality all the time but as Steve points out, it is often conversation directed right past those of us who experience same-sex attraction. During my undergraduate days at a small Baptist college, I heard plenty of rhetoric about voting against gay rights, but no one talked about the possibility that gay students existed on campus. I disclosed to a few trusted friends and professors, but for the most part stayed under the radar. Though, I did write an anonymous letter to the college president expressing my concerns about campus attitudes.
While the majority of gay students at Christian colleges do not appear to affirm homosexuality, the survey in the Journal of Psychology and Theology indicated 13.9% of participants professed a gay identity. A couple weeks ago, I had lunch with one such student. Brandy attended Azusa Pacific University and later started a doctorate at Wheaton, only to be asked to leave due to being in an active lesbian relationship. She is now finishing up her M.Div. at Duke University’s Divinity School and has written about her experiences on her blog. Brandy and I are both attending a class called “Sexuality: Bible, Church and Controversy”—the first course of its kind to be offered at the Divinity School. We have listened to top notch scholars, including Lauren Winner and Ellen Davis. Duke Divinity faculty members hold to a variety of persuasions on homosexuality, but tend to avoid giving their personal views. Instead topics focus on broader perspectives such as the nature of biblical interpretation and the history of sexuality in the Church and the Western world. Later the class will discuss psychological perspectives and pastoral care. Both sides of the issue are being presented, though the curriculum tends to lean slightly toward affirming.
The class is refreshing in its ability to move beyond the tired black and white debate. And for the most part faculty and students appear to be compassionate. However, I notice the same problem Steve did at Wheaton. The class talks about gay people–quite sympathetically too–but there are no gay voices. In fact, it has been mentioned a couple of times that this is not the place to “share our whole life stories.” After all, this is a graduate level course and not a support group. I realize they don’t want the course to devolve into emotional outbursts and sentimentality. But is that what they expect would happen if gay students discuss their experiences? So far I see no listing in the syllabus of speakers who will share what it is like to be a Christian with same-sex attraction. There is a safe, academic distance.
I am concerned about gay Christian college students. The Church has become more compassionate, but still seems at a loss to help. I too wrestle with how we should best respond. My heart breaks when I read some of the e-mails I get from young college students struggling with same-sex attraction. And I often wonder what will become of the 100+ young people I met while volunteering for the youth track at the 2008 Exodus conference. I want to take away all the pain. But I know I can’t, just as no one could magically make things better for me. My one consolation is that I know from experience that there is life on the other side of the storm. I survived those tough early years. The human spirit is often more resilient than we ever expect.
In the near future I hope to post my thoughts on what I have found helpful in making it through my own journey. In the meantime, here are suggestions from the students who participated in the Journal of Psychology and Theology survey as well as from Steve:
Survey participants:
- Do not affirm homosexuality as God-blessed (that is help them live congruently with their sexual ethics).
- Level the playing field by not singling out homosexuality as being more sinful than any other sin.
- Talk about homosexuality, including through providing testimonies, seminars and support groups on campus.
Steve:
- Acknowledge the fact that gay students exist on Christian college campuses.
- Break the silence. Talk about homosexuality, but don’t just talk about it as an abstraction or moral issue. Illuminate the campus community to the real life struggles of living with same-sex attraction. Give faculty, staff and the student body tools to better minister to their fellow classmates who might be gay.
- Provide integrated fellowship groups where gay and straight students can share their struggles together. Support groups solely for those with same-sex attraction can isolate students from the rest of the campus community. Emphasize the commonalities of the Christian walk for all students regardless of sexual orientation, and avoid anything that creates a segregated, “underground” (and therefore shame-inducing) support group.
- Reassure gay students that they are not the only one’s facing this challenge. It is helpful to connect with other students who are going through the same struggle.
- Reassure gay students they don’t have to face this alone. Be community and family to them.
What about you? What are your thoughts and suggestions? What can we do to better minister to Christian college students with same-sex attraction? Or if you have same-sex attractions and attended a Christian college, what was your experience?
51 Comments
September 20, 2009 at 6:48 am
Excellent post. I am featuring it today on my own blog. Thanks, Karen! Much appreciated.
September 20, 2009 at 9:07 am
Karen,
Thanks! I especially want to re-emphasize what Steve said, that gay and straight students should share their struggles together. As a Christian man who also struggles with gay attractions, I would say that some of the most helpful encouragement has come through straight friends who genuinely care about me.
September 20, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Gay people are talked about all the time without actually being given a voice. Not only in the church but also in the secular community. I decided pretty randomly to take a Women and Gender course at University and while lesbian and bisexual women are talked about they are also not really given a voice. I feel the same as I do in church. The only difference is the church doesn’t affirm where the people in my course do. So I think it’s an issue of straight people not really knowing how to go about relating to gay people. We need people in the church who have come out on the other side of all the turmoil to speak up more and that way we can be of some assistance to the young kids who are just realizing their attractions.
Anyways those are just my observations they may be different elsewhere.
September 20, 2009 at 3:27 pm
Hey all,
Thanks for your comments. Its good to be here interacting again. Sarah, your comment made me think about something else. I think that one of the things that LGBT people need is just to be heard. We want straight people to listen to us. And, by listening, to understand us. We want to be understood.
When I think about the Duke class–there is compassion. And there is an attempt to hear gay voices by reading certain books. But that is not enough. I want these straight folk in the class to hear from a living, breathing gay person. I want them to make eye contact. I want them to listen. And I want them to see a human being. A personal connection. I think we fear being misunderstood by straight folk (I know I do). Or we sense the discomfort that even well-meaning straight people have around gay people. And we want to break that ice.
Most people would not have a class on a certain people group without inviting representatives from that group to share. For example, on racism and what it is like to be black in America. It would be odd to have only white voices trying to read and dissect that. I am not equating sexual orientation with race or ethnicity. But, just using that as an example. The same could be said about a class on disability and society. It would be important to have folk from the disability community represented. Because people who experience these realities are the best people to talk about it. Not that everyone has the same experience. But, a panel or a few voices can go along way to making the issue less of an abstraction. Because “issues” are really about people. And the more we know the heart of the people involved, the more we understand the issue.
September 20, 2009 at 6:18 pm
Well, as a student who recently graduated from a Christian college in the Midwest not unlike Wheaton, I have some relevant thoughts. At my university it was much as Steve described Wheaton. The attitudes among the students certainly did vary. A few did frequently tell gay jokes or mention gays as political opponents. A few were affirming of homosexual behavior, although mostly not openly so. However, most students simply didn’t seem to be aware that there were Christians struggling that way. There was a common assumption that homosexuality was something that happened outside the church, and any attempt to bring understanding of what same-sex attracted people go through was suspected by some as an attempt to change church doctrine.
Issues of homosexuality were certainly discussed on campus. Most recently it was really just political debates about gay marriage. My freshman year, we did have Stanton Jones give a chapel talk that was advertised as discussing our community and homosexuality. It was almost entirely a presentation on the fallacies of pro-gay theology, and made little mention of actual students dealing with SSA. We also had Exodus come in for a conference intended to bring up the issue to the men on campus. There was a good presentation by Randy Thomas, but the whole thing was poorly attended. I even heard otherwise great, loving guys say things like, “I just don’t particularly care to learn about gay people.”
Personally, I had a great experience in undergrad. I guess I was one of the guys who, as Steve described, was “willing to search for it like some stupid gay holy grail.” I formed close community with straight guys on my floor who knew my secret but still supported me. I did deal with it the way normal people deal with normal issues. In doing so, I formed friendships like never before, became more content in my relationships with other guys, and went through a great deal of healing. I overcame shame and grew closer to God. This is certainly possible at a Christian college, and probably more so than most anywhere else, but it could still be much easier. The counseling center was a good resource, although according to my counselor the use dwindled over the past couple years. He suspected most people were taking a gay-affirming approach and so working with the school’s conservative counselors did not appeal to them. I’ve read some anonymous articles from past students who indeed took such an approach.
Reading Steve’s article, I’ve realized that had I been completely open with everyone, that might have been exactly what the campus needed to have an attitude change. The sort of community he describes would have been a very good thing. There is still one thing I do wonder: I was known for many aspects of my personality that have little or nothing to do with my sexuality. I wouldn’t have it any other way. (In fact, if I were to describe myself even in the most candid way, my sexual attractions would not be the first thing I mention.) I lived with a loving community of people who valued me. Had they all known about my issues, would it have been the same? I actually suspect it would have been better than I thought. There was a guy on my floor who admitted at a floor retreat that he “used to struggle with homosexuality” and toward the end even confessed to our entire church that he was “completely healed.” He was certainly accepted. Close friends of his who knew more details reported becoming much more understanding of SSA issues as a result of his disclosure and discussions with them. So maybe being more open would have been altogether a good thing.
I suspect that much of the conservative church shares many of the same attitudes as Christian colleges. I think even those outside of college can learn from people like Steve, and the same principles apply.
September 21, 2009 at 5:37 am
The issue I want to comment about is the desire to be understood. We all want to be understood. But minorities, in general, seem to feel more misunderstood and marginalized. That’s just part of the human condition.
Unfortunately, this often leads to a victim mentality, which is dangerous both for the mind and soul.
I think one thing that would help prevent this is to understand others back! Let us empathize with those who do not understand the ssa struggle. What would we do if we were them?
It is this sort of empathy that helps remove the victim mentality and helps us to become more loving and outward-focused, as I think Christ would want us to be.
September 21, 2009 at 5:48 am
Neo,
I was really glad to hear you got through your shame issues regarding your sexuality at a Christian school.
I think many people are put in that position to bring up their shame so they can deal with it, hopefully to lead productive active lives as balanced gay males having a partner and living life in the bliss of being with another to share life with.
I also am happy that people are more gay affirming and leaving the conservative counseling, as it does some people more harm than good.
I don’t mean to be presumptuous about you being sexually active, as you did not mention it. Is that something you are willing to share?
September 21, 2009 at 7:08 am
Cass,
Sure, I’m willing to share. I am not sexually active, nor have I ever been. I do hold to a conservative ethic, so I do not affirm having a partner or any other sexual activity with the same sex.
For those not attracted to the opposite sex at all, I believe people are meant to share life with a close community of friends, especially Christian brothers and sisters. Many conservative churches have a long way to go in terms of providing such an atmosphere where single people, especially older single people, can thrive and grow. Others are much better.
I am personally attracted to both sexes, so marriage to a woman is a realistic and likely option for me. I am not currently in such a relationship, though.
I do see some dangers from conservative counseling, but, unlike you, I do not believe they are inherent in the conservative sexual ethic. If shame about attractions is increased, many problems will occur. If people are led to believe that they must change their sexual feelings, or else they are somehow a failure, most people will come to see themselves as failures. I’ve also heard of cases where the counselor assumed the standard “reparative” model of how same-sex attractions develop, leading guys to resent their fathers for things they never did. However, if the counselor is realistic about what kinds of change may or may not happen (as mine was), and is there mostly to help people live congruently with their faith, I think conservative counseling is a good idea. We don’t need to throw out the baby with the bathwater just because some conservative counseling has caused great problems. Warren Throckmorton has some good thoughts on this; you might want to check out his blog at wthrockmorton.com if you haven’t already.
I do believe that it is possible to be same-sex attracted and at peace without same-sex sexual activity. This is true whether a person is also attracted to the opposite sex (as is the case with me) or only attracted to his/her own sex (as is the case with Jay, for example.) Of course, this doesn’t mean that it is always going to be easy, or that people don’t need support.
Saul,
Those are some good thoughts. I have quite a few good friends who do not understand SSA. I don’t feel like a victim of oppression myself and feel I have a decent understanding of where they are coming from. I am just concerned for SSA people who are not where I am and have difficulties in the conservative church/Christian college situation. That’s where I’ve realized that many of my friends could have used more openness from me, as I believe it could have helped them understand.
September 21, 2009 at 8:15 am
I know this is kind of off topic, but I’m just amazed how many of us are voicing our thought, experiences and opinions. This must be affecting the larger Christian culture.
September 21, 2009 at 8:23 am
The only other suggestion I would add would be “Don’t PRESSURE people!” Some young, gay people are genuinely trying to discover whether or not God DOES bless monogamous, same-sex relationships. Answering that question FOR people ultimately does far more harm than good. Sure, tell people what you believe, and how you see things, but if you leave no room for differing interpretations, you may come off as rather dismissive or even arrogant. That’s not only a turn off, but it’s a turn away.
You can’t establish trust if your message to people is “I’m right, and any other opinion is wrong.” You establish a much better relationship if you do more listening than speaking, asking more questions than giving answers, and giving people freedom to hear the voice of God in their life rather than speaking for Him.
September 21, 2009 at 1:35 pm
“Answering that question FOR people ultimately does far more harm than good. Sure, tell people what you believe, and how you see things, but if you leave no room for differing interpretations, you may come off as rather dismissive or even arrogant.”
That’s kind of difficult, though. The reason I believe what I believe is because I think that it is absolute truth. I leave room for differing interpretations only in the sense that I understand that sometimes people are wrong. If I didn’t think that what I believed was correct, then I wouldn’t be living the life that I lead. I’m not saying that I pressure people. At the same time, if I say what I think and why I live the way I do, then people are going to assume that I’m arrogant based on that alone.
September 21, 2009 at 4:55 pm
I appreciate all the comments. Thanks everyone!
Saul–I agree with you that any marginalized group has to guard against a victim mentality. And I have seen some people live very self-absorbed lives because of it. Most of the people I minister to are in “survival mode” and so my goal is try to get them as much help as possible and that means finding people who care enough to listen and understand. I am very concerned about the stats in this survey where so many young people are closeted and not telling anyone who might be able to help them. Usually they say nothing because they are afraid. And so, I try to do what I can to try to get the larger community (of primarily straight folk) to engage.
Darren–I agree that we shouldn’t pressure people. Both sides of the debate use people like pawns in a tug of war sometimes. The problem with pressuring people to do anything is that it detracts from a person’s need to take responsibility for his/her own life. And decisions that are made based on pressure will ultimately crumble anyway –especially when it comes to something as challenging as living with same-sex attraction. If someone pressured me not to be in a lesbian relationship for ethical reasons, that ultimately wouldn’t last. Eventually, the longing to spend my life with someone would win out. The only thing that keeps me on the path of not being in a relationship with a woman is because of very strong convictions within myself. Otherwise, it would be too hard.
So pressuring people–regardless of what side one is on, is fruitless. That being said, I do think the very nature of living in community is that we influence others and others influence us. Jay makes a good point in that regard. Simply having his beliefs and sharing them–without pressuring anyone–is an influence just by living his life.
I just had a conversation recently with another student who heads up the LGBT support group at the Divinity School and I suggested that it be a group where anyone could come regardless of belief. That is, we just accept people where they are at in their journey–whether they are affirming or not. And she was uncomfortable with this because from her perspective it would be harmful for those who are confused to be exposed to those who are not affirming of homosexuality. She believes helping people get to an affirming place is the most healing and liberating. And, of course, I could say the same thing about my perspective.
So, the question is–how do we not pressure people, but also recognize the realities that we all want to influence each other in positive ways and we all have differences of opinion on what we consider positive? Darren, I would be interested in hearing from your own experience how this would play out for you if you were talking with someone who was struggling with their same-sex attractions, and that person wasn’t sure what direction they should go in. Would you give them completely unbiased info? Equal resources and referrals for both sides? For example, if you are gay affirming, would you also encourage them to check out Exodus? Or, would you be inclined to influence them in a particular way that you thought was best?
September 21, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Karen,
It’s nice to see you blogging again, and I appreciate the topic! I hope that the Christian college student study will spur interest in additional research on similar campuses. I know of at least one other study currently underway that may assist with it. I know it’s can be kind of lame to go on about the benefits of research, but sometimes studies can give a voice to a group that has little opportunity to share their experiences.
I appreciated the suggestions from Steve for how to improve things. In our study, I was especially struck by ways in which the campus climate was so difficult for sexual minorities. It wasn’t so much the college policies (for most participants) but rather the climate established by peers (in residence halls, teasing, use of derogatory terms, and so on), particularly among males. To me, a place to begin is with campus life/residence hall staff/RAs. Of course, that would only be a beginning and it is unclear how specifically campus life staff can impact climate, but they seem to be critical proximal agents. Perhaps having them aware of it would be a first step in identifying ways to improve climate.
September 21, 2009 at 7:48 pm
I went to ORU. I never identified myself as “gay” because I knew that deep down that was not how God created me, but I did feel alone in my struggle while attending there. There was always the occasional chapel speaker who would speak against it, but never a helping out to reach out to. I finally told one of my psychology professors, and he told me he was retiring and referred me to another ORU counselor. The ORU counselor not only charged me for the visit, but told me that it was all right to be gay. It was such a vulnerable time in my life that I almost believed it without weighing any of the facts. I loved the school, but I find that often Christian communities are incapable at reaching down to people fumbling in their walk with God and helping them up.
September 21, 2009 at 9:02 pm
Mark,
My university actually has started doing some things through residence life. Although I have never been an RA nor in an official spiritual leadership position, I believe that they all discuss issues related to homosexuality in their official training. My freshman year the RA actually made a comment about not wanting to alienate guys who struggled with attractions to other guys. This made it obvious that he was a good person to talk to, and he was one of the first people I disclosed to. He was always supportive and is to this day a very good friend, even though we’ve both since graduated. I’ve actually told just about everyone who was in leadership positions on the floor while I was there, and all have been supportive.
Having people identify themselves as safe people to talk to is a very good thing and helps take away a lot of the fear of sharing.
Campus leaders could probably have done more, but I think they are taking steps in the right direction. I’m rather happy with the job they did. The student leaders can help, but they can’t completely transform every student’s attitude. SSA issues also may not be foremost on their minds before they know about the struggles of their own friends and floormates.
September 22, 2009 at 5:36 am
certainly the the christian community at large has tried to approach ssa issues in a somewhat better way the past number of years. various christian books and articles try to encourage less judgmental attitudes and more understanding. some people have gone too far in being gay-affirming, but overall, there is at least a trend in people trying to not be so “bad”, essentially, at dealing with all this.
here is the thing, though. people just don’t get it. we all have different issues, and we don’t fully relate to what others go through. so, that is one thing. lots of people, even those who care and don’t see people with ssa struggles as being any different/worse than anyone else, will have a hard time really helping because there is such a vast disconnect there. it’s so hard for them to comprehend that something can be such a struggle. it’s easier to look at life things in black and white, instead of the often gray of ssa struggles. i may not get the challenges in marriage if i’m not married, but we are around marriages all the time and friends with people who are married. and, married people will often discuss their struggles easily. so, i can have a better comprehension than most people who really have no clue about the struggle of ssa’s. and, even if they want to help, it will take time for them to start to understand and see the full reality of what people deal with.
the other big thing that still exists so much is the social stigma. using that same type of caring, understanding person as an example, even they can so often fall back into seeing ssa as an “issue,” more than as a real and personal struggle for someone they know. look at the front page of christianitytoday.com. they list hot topics and one is same-sex marriage. no doubt the publishers would want to be ones who are caring and understanding and helpful (and they and their publications have written some decent stuff at times), but they don’t see that they are only fueling the stigma attached to ssa attraction. and that’s the thing. it has a stigma that is hard to ignore.
hey – i appreciate this blog as much as anyone. this connection has been helpful to me in walking through my own things. it’s just that, in terms of thinking how to help those with the struggle, this blog itself is proof of how ssa is an “issue.” the fact that a blog like this is needed shows that all these ssa things are issues, topics. there is a degree of segregation, so to speak. lots of christians commit adultery. and, everyone would say it’s wrong and all that. but, you just don’t have the same kind of stigma. plus, there are no political and social groups of adulterers. you know? there’s no agenda with it. it remains a personal thing that people deal with (with loads of fall-out and pain, etc., of course).
i’m just saying that there is a reality to ssa issues and all of it being just that – issues. so, for even the most loving and caring of christians to separate from that is hard. and, it’s not a conscious thing. but, so many christians who even want to be helpful and open can very easily have the stigma surface without realizing it.
so, combine these two things (the just not getting it and the issue end of it), and i think that it is hard for people at colleges or anywhere to actually meet people who are struggling at their level in a safe and free way.
a way for it to change is for those dealing with ssa to be open and real. it’s just that it doesn’t seem safe. so, they hesitate to share. and round it goes. they don’t share because they don’t feel safe, but then people don’t change and learn and be open more because they don’t get it and don’t see it as a big problem because they never hear about it personally; they only know it as an “issue.”
steve’s insights and what is brought to light on this blog and other places are really good, though. and, if word can get out more, hopefully it will begin to change and bring help to those struggling alone.
September 22, 2009 at 9:02 am
Jay,
You are right. It is difficult. But then, when did Jesus say that life would be easy? When you say:
“I leave room for differing interpretations only in the sense that I understand that sometimes people are wrong.”
Can you see how this is arrogant? What you haven’t left room for is that sometimes YOU are wrong. And what if you are indeed wrong about your understanding of God and homosexuality?
Saying what you believe, and living that out is not why anyone would think you’re arrogant (at least anyone reasonable). If anything, it’s because of an inability to see your own blind spots. One can live a very convicted life, sure of what they believe, and graceful to others because they are equally sure that they could be incorrect in their own belief.
Karen,
I completely agree. Being in community is influence, but it is not pressure per se. And influence is OK. But ultimately, I think the most successful community is going to be one where unconditional love is practiced. That way, when people arrive at different conclusions, they can debate those with the community – even passionately and forcefully – but at the end of the day, they know they are still at home in community.
In my own experience with ex-gay culture, I was part of a very tight community. (In fact, it was/is the largest ministry for SSA youth in the world.) I was even a leader in the community for a couple of years. Unfortunately, the community’s foundation was one where those who disagreed were not readily accepted or valued. It sounds as if your friend is trying to establish another such community (except that she draws the lines of who’s in and who’s out a lot differently).
The problem with these types of relationships is that they ultimately only accomplish creating more casualties in a complicated culture war that has already claimed the vitality of many who were once in the Church.
In my extensive experience with ex-gay ministry (where I literally ministered to hundreds of gay, confused, Christian youth), the only things I regret are the ways in which I made no room for people with a different point of view. What happened when people came to different theological conclusions? They were overtly told (or it was at least implied) that they were no longer acceptable to the group, and then they walked away. Sadly, about 95% of the youth that came to us walked away. Some of them very early on, b/c the thought of living a tough life of denying sexual urges was too difficult. But some left after years, upon deep prayer and reflection, and landing at a different theological spot. After being shunned by most of their Christian friends though, the grand majority of these youth eventually left the Christian faith altogether.
I myself became one of the people who arrived at a different theological conclusion, and left the ministry. I remained in the Christian faith, but most of my dear companions did not. The ONLY reason I think I’m still Christian today, and pursuing the way of Jesus, is because I found a community that wasn’t going to tell me one way or another how to see this issue. They committed to walking with me, and supporting me in finding a healthy life.
What if instead of drawing sharp lines showing who’s in and who’s out, we instead included everyone? What if we allowed everyone to hear God for themselves, and encouraged them to pursue a healthy lifestyle – EVEN IF we thought they weren’t hearing CORRECTLY from God? (After all, don’t you think God is more pleased when his children genuinely seek his will and try to follow it – even if clumsily and often incorrectly – rather than not having a child follow him at all??)
That is the kind of community I dream of when it comes to God’s gay children. I’ve been an active participant and a leader in other types of communities that have operated by the black/white, conservative/liberal, in/out status quo. They don’t work well. They only drive wedges, and create unnecessary pain. I think there’s a better way.
To answer your questions, Karen, what’s paramount to me is that people live by their convictions, and follow in the way of Jesus. I can’t presume to understand all of the ways in which Jesus calls people. It’s not my job to do so. I just love Him, and love others. So when my ex-gay friends call and talk about their struggles w/ some new hot guy who’s pursuing them, I encourage them to stand by their convictions, and not ignore them b/c it’s convenient, and they’re lonely, and it’s difficult. And when youth who have not quite figured out what they feel God is calling them to, I just support them, love them, and let them know I’m there for them regardless which path they choose. As to materials, I point people to materials that I feel are best for them in the moment. Though, admittedly, that’s rarely ex-gay materials, b/c I honestly do feel that there are a lot of duplicitous, unrealistic, unreasoned, unscientific and unhealthy ex-gay materials out there. I might be more inclined to point those people to PEOPLE that I know who’ve lived out their sexuality (be it married life or celibacy) in a realistic, Godly, healthy way.
Honestly, this is not easy. It’s not fun living in this tension, trying to understand a God who seems to be speaking different things to different people. But this has ALWAYS been what church has been about. I think it’s time we stopped dividing over our varied interpretations, and come to a unity of faith that allows for varied interpretation. This does not water down truth at all. In fact, if truth is indeed Truth, then it will prevail. We needn’t worry that we give people the “wrong message” by condoning what we think is sin. All of my friends (ex-gay, gay, bi, queer, whatever) know what I believe, and I live it boldly. But they also know that I’m safe, even if they disagree. And they know I won’t steer them into convenience, but into Christ.
September 22, 2009 at 9:54 am
Jay, I just re-read your post. When I originally read it, I thought you were saying that you leave open the possibility for different interpretations b/c OTHER ppl are wrong, but I see how you could have used the term “people” to also include yourself. Please forgive me if I originally misrepresented your statement. I do stand by the assertion that having a belief and living it is not generally what makes people assume others are arrogant though – it’s refusing to admit that they might be incorrect.
Darren
September 22, 2009 at 10:38 am
I love this blog and this conversation, and I count it a privilege to be in direct dialogue with both Jay and Darren occasionally. Both of you, and Karen, have had a big impact on me, and the impact continues to evolve.
Jennie, you are so right. People need to be more open, because too many people who struggle can’t find support when and where they need it. If no one had spoken publicly, I never would have gotten the help I needed with my own struggle with homosexuality. As a facilitator of an online private Facebook group for guys who struggle with SSA, I get messages almost everyday from somebody wanting to join or discuss an area of the struggle. Like Darren said, some ultimately decide to either pursue a gay relationship or walk away from certain aspects of the faith, and previously I might have left them walk away, but now I seek to stay in relationship, to continue to support and pray for them as they work out their decision in whatever way they do. I do not want to be the one who excludes, or lead others to practice the same. Books like Andy Marin’s are teaching me another path, and getting me to look at scripture with new eyes, and to look at my brothers (and sisters) who struggle with new eyes.
Thank you again for opening up this conversation. It is vital for the body of Christ.
September 22, 2009 at 7:31 pm
After a long one-on-one with Andrew Marin, I fully believe he has hit the nail on the head. He comes from where you come from Darren, quite open with respect to where he may direct a struggling gay person. He is all about coming to Christ and making one’s decision based on that relationship.
In my own struggles with ssa, Jesus has been very explicit with me about draining my energy with negative sexual activities, and building my love with loving sexual activities. It was explained to me that loving sexual acts with a person of the same gender is ok, and not an issue. What is an issue, is playing sexual roles that tire the system, too much porn, too much lust, too much promiscuity. Then there is the struggle with celibacy, which can be just as tiring of a struggle as it just swings the pendulum to the opposite position.
Too much sex can cause a blur in life, and that is not good. I don’t think it’s a sin, it’s just taking away from other parts of life that are important. And if I take it entirely away through celibacy, I feel ripped off and lonely. I also think of each cell in my body like a brother and sister, and to have some bros and sis’s chastize my sexual bros and sis’s in me, is conflictive and keeps the struggle going. So my struggle has not been about being celibate all the time, or over sexing all the time, but finding the balance. St. Augustine became celibate because he was out of control sexually. That’s cool to recover in the state of celibacy, but at some point, from what I have deduced from my long prayer and visits with Jesus, it’s about establishing middle ground that supports us as humans on our trek in life.
It’s the same for straights and gays in that manner. But it was said repeatedly to me, that it is not about ssa or heterosexuality, but how we use sex in general. It’s about taking sexual responsibility, not overdoing it, but not hiding out from it either, as that is impossible, but balancing it. So I try to adhere to that, which in itself is a struggle sometimes, because I love sex.
There has been some talk about the Bible teachings on homosexuality referring to Pedophilia . . . http://www.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/CorinthiansTimothy.php . . . and I think that it is time that it be considered an option of belief for all struggling ssa people. It seems to have gotten very little air time (if at all) in these blogs and I am wondering why, maybe someone can shed some light on that. When one makes a life decision as deep and as potent as directing natural sexual chemistry, I believe all the information is helpful and should be clearly laid out on the table.
I like the idea of everyone coming together, but calling someone a sinner because they don’t believe the way oneself may about homosexuality is hurtful, and does not bring balance to anyone, it just makes everyone more shameful. We get enough of that from the straight community without having to do ourselves in with it. I agree with you Darren about the dream of bringing everyone together, but as long as there is this divisive term called “you’re a sinner” I think that dream is unrealistic. I think for those that like to throw stones, it might be good for them to realize that they honestly don’t “know” beyond their own inner convictions for themselves, and cannot be sure if they are right about everyone else. Hence “I” statements would be quite helpful in collapsing the divide. The Bible is open for interpretation, and is controversial, as much as is whether God, as it is described biblicaly, is real or not. From my point of view, tossing loving same sex couples in with murderers and thieves, just doesn’t make a whole lotta sense. Now pedophiles, in my mind, that’s a slam dunk.
I know for myself, I can have a sex life and have God and Jesus in my life. In fact to have otherwise, would not be in my opinion Christian, because loving gay sex is not evil, it’s a loving expression. To say otherwise makes “the adversary” win. And we all know who that is. Confusion and struggle is the name of His game, which is where most find themselves in this bubble of struggle. This bodes the question concerning sexual struggle; whose game are we playing, God’s or the Devil’s?
I think it’s time that common sense play a card here, which the Devil hates, or we may just keep spinning our wheels in “the struggle” for generations to come.
September 23, 2009 at 10:09 am
It’s very interesting to see that the college student who struggles with same-sex attraction at a Christian college is perhaps handicapped more so than the college student at a secular school. A Christian environment should provide the place to be open and revelatory about the issues in our lives, whether it be sexual brokenness, confusion or the actual acting out on homosexual temptations: sin. Unfortunately, the environment on a Christian campus can often send the SSA struggler deeper into hiding.
When I was a student on a secular campus, heavily in involved in the Baptist Student Ministry organization, I found that there were a number of SSA strugglers in the group. However, what resulted is that we, in a sense, used each other to meet our hidden needs and then treated each other badly, judging each other and holding the other responsible for the fall. How did we justify our behavior? Well, we were opening up to a fellow Christian. In the darkness.
The fact that Christians struggle with SSA needs to be recognized by the church and seminaries and Christian college campus leadership. Until safe and open discussions are possible, Christians will remain confused and guilt-ridden . . . or they will embrace the lifestyle and the comforting idea that “God made me this way.”
He didn’t. You just happened to be born into the fallen world along with everyone else and you walk among the people who suffer from gluttony, view pornography, lust heterosexually, lie, gamble, become addicted to drugs. The solution is confession, repentance, grace, forgiveness and redemption. And all of this needs to be done with an understanding of scripture in context, not a few verses chosen here and there to support a position, a mood or an addiction.
Thom Hunter
http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/
September 23, 2009 at 11:33 am
Darren,
I actually did mean that comment in the way you originally interpreted it, and I can understand that you think it’s arrogant. I really can. But if your definition of arrogance is someone having clear lines of right and wrong, aren’t we all arrogant?
You’re getting married to a man, for instance. Surely that means that you think that gay relationships are okay with God. I don’t think gay relationships are okay with God. We both have our beliefs and we both think our beliefs are correct and that the other person is wrong. Is that arrogance? I don’t think so. It’s conviction, and it’s strong enough to impact our life choices, but in the end only one of us will be correct. That doesn’t mean that we can’t love each other or be friends, but I honestly just can’t see the world in the same pluralistic way that you do. Gay sex either is sin for everyone or it isn’t sin for anyone. There is no in-between.
Now, I’m not making a judgment of your soul when I say that. I can’t judge your heart or your relationship with Christ. But I can judge what I think is right and what I think is wrong based off Scripture. But I don’t think saying that I think you’re wrong is an offensive thing, since you obviously think I’m wrong as well, and I don’t take any offense to that.
September 23, 2009 at 11:43 am
I’ll also note here that I don’t claim to be a bridge builder of any kind. Even though I respect their work, it’s really not something I am good at, since I really don’t have the ability to finesse anything, ever. I usually keep my opinions to myself in person, and only in writing do I generally get into arguments or voice disagreements with people, so everything I’ve said should be taken with that grain of salt.
September 23, 2009 at 11:50 am
Jay,
Your response to Darren contains a clear and consistent interpretation of the Scripture. The tendency in today’s culture — a culture that is driving churches to change — is to help people feel good about their life situations, even if the lifestyle is clearly a sin, as is acting out on homosexual temptations. We can’t blur the lines for our personal satisfaction and self-esteem.
Those who struggle with same-sex attraction have a very loving God who understands and will help them move beyond it. We often don’t understand how much we want change until we believe it is possible.
Thom
http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/
September 23, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Jay,
Once again, I think you are missing my point. I don’t know how to say any better that people can absolutely have very clear ideas about right/wrong, and not be considered arrogant. It’s about recognizing human frailty. It’s arrogant to say “I understand OTHER people can be wrong, but *I* couldn’t be.” If other people can be wrong, then barring narcissism, you have to admit that you could be wrong too.
I believe in absolute truth. To not believe in absolute truth is philosophical suicide. And I believe that I’ve heard God correctly about my life, and the way I am living out my sexuality. And if you say that I’m mistaken, then I believe you’re wrong. This doesn’t make me arrogant. This makes me someone with moral convictions. But I also firmly believe that I could be wrong in my many current convictions. Wisdom and experience teach me this. Thus, it will affect the way that you and I debate issues . . . it will affect the way I treat you. No one has ever called me arrogant for having an opinion. I’ve only been called arrogant when I’ve been too haughty to admit that I might be wrong.
Being able to hold your beliefs firmly, but with the knowledge that you might be incorrect about them IS humility. The inability to admit your own humanity IS arrogance.
Out of curiosity, why is it that you believe gay sex must be sin for everyone or no one? Why the either/or scenario? Is it possible that God wants SOME people to be sexual and some people not to be? Does God call heterosexual people to celibacy and some to marriage? Could he not do the same for gay people?
Darren
P.S. Being a bridge builder isn’t any easier for people who DO know how to “finesse” things. So if that’s you’re only excuse for not doing the tough work of bridge-building, then I think you’re gonna have to come up with something better to be in any way respectful
September 23, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Perhaps we’re just different personalities. If I think that I could be wrong about something, then I don’t commit to it. Committing to something which you could be wrong about seems far too risky to me, and I’m just naturally not a risk-taker.
I don’t mean any disrespect about any of this, though, and I don’t think I missed your point. We’re just different people with different personalities and presuppositions which inform our beliefs and how we go about things, and there’s nothing wrong with that. We’re just naturally going to clash about certain issues. That’s okay, though. That doesn’t mean we can’t still be friends.
Referring to your question: to me, the Bible says that two people of the same sex having sexual intercourse is a sin. This isn’t like heterosexual marriage, where some people are called to it and some aren’t. I think the correct reading of the verses is that homosexual sex is sinful, and there doesn’t seem to be any hint that it is sinful for some but not sinful for others.
September 23, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Jay,
I’m not sure what commitment has to do with humility. To say that you only commit to what you THINK is right is one thing. We ALL do that. But to say that you only commit to what IS right is outright arrogance or delusion. You’re essentially saying that you never make mistakes. You’re saying you never believe something that is false. Well, that’s simply not Biblical nor logical. We all end up believing things that we later realize was completely wrong.
So you could choose to only accept you are wrong about things when you DISCOVER that you’re wrong about them, or you could have the wisdom and foresight to recognize that you could be wrong about any number of things you currently believe. The latter actually makes you a better tool for God. The person who operates in the former way is much harder for God to mold. The person who recognizes they are fallible and able to make mistakes, will be listening much more intently for God to tweak their incorrect beliefs. The one who insists they must be right and couldn’t be wrong is not listening to any other voice, certainly not the Still Small One. They’ve made up their mind. And that’s final!
It’s not an issue of personality. It’s an issue of what attitude you choose to take about your beliefs. And I know, b/c I wrote the exact same things you currently write, Jay, not but 5 years ago. I’ve seen the wisdom of operating in a different way, and I’ve chosen to do so.
You may not believe that my chosen approach to belief is optimal or best. But don’t be fooled, my friend . . . your personality probably doesn’t differ all that much from mine. It’s the ways in which we choose to engage our personalities that’s likely different.
September 23, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Look, I am trying to end this conversation respectfully. Please do not call me delusional. Of course I realize that I make mistakes.
“To say that you only commit to what you THINK is right is one thing. We ALL do that. But to say that you only commit to what IS right is outright arrogance or delusion.”
I’m sorry, but I just can’t understand this statement. We are talking past each other, and there is little reason to continue. Take care of yourself.
September 23, 2009 at 3:57 pm
And when I say that I don’t understand the statement, let me be clear. To me, if I THINK something is right, then that’s because I believe it IS right. I think most people are the same, no matter how open-minded they present themselves. Hope that gets across what I want to get across.
September 23, 2009 at 4:08 pm
Mark–I appreciate your suggestion about working with residential life. I agree. Also, thanks for doing studies like this. You are helping to bring more awareness and thereby helping people.
Neo–thanks for sharing your experiences. It sounds like you had a good experience with your guy friends and your counselor. And that being open and transparent was a big part in it being a healthy experience.
Ryan–thanks for leaving a comment. I am surprised to hear about your ORU counselor, simply because that is such a conservative school.
Jennie–thanks for sharing your thoughts. I agree that if those with SSA are more open, that will help things. And, as far as others not getting the issue–I think to a certain degree we are all observers to other people’s experiences. Perhaps that is why people feel a kindred connection with those who have gone through the same thing.
Jeff–I am so glad you are out there ministering, and its good to know there is the facebook group for guys if anyone needs it. Also, I agree with you that its important to stay in relationship with people. Particularly when it comes to SSA, it is such a long process for folk and often confusing and its important to be there walking with people through all of that even if they draw conclusions we might disagree with.
Cass– it sounds like you have really gained a lot of wisdom in how to process your sexuality–specifically, the importance of balance and moderation. I agree with you. The only thing that concerns me is that your perspective seems to consider celibacy inferior. In some ways that is similar to what many ultra-conservatives believe. That is, if you are not in a relationship (marriage and having sex) there is something wrong with you.
I tend to agree with Gandhi that there can be much value to celibacy. The energy we put into sex can, instead, be used for other important things–and I would argue even more important things. Plus, not everyone has the option of a sexual relationship even when they want one. And yet life can be good and fulfilling.
On another note, I agree with you about the importance of information when it comes to making such important life decisions. I have written a few posts on the Bible and homosexuality–you can click on the sidebar “Biblical/Theological Studies” link to see those. Also, in regards to the particular passages you brought up and the link you provided on arsenokoite, Peter Ould does a great job of addressing these on his blog here: http://www.peter-ould.net/2009/07/12/sexuality-and-slavery-part-three/
As for the question of calling someone a sinner– I agree that some people are very judgmental and seem to enjoy condemning others. Though, I am curious about your theology around sin. The Bible says we are all sinners who have fallen short of God’s glory. So we’re all sinners. Perhaps, you mean that you find it hurtful for people to call the act of homosexuality a sin?
Darren– I appreciate your humility in approaching this topic. I am sad to hear that the ministry you worked with would walk away from youth who made certain decisions. I wholeheartedly agree that we need to love people unconditionally even if we disagree.
On another note, Darren and Jay–I would be interested in taking your conversation to a deeper level. Especially as it seems to be moving toward an argument. I am not sure you guys are completely in disagreement. I think both of you agree that treating people with respect is important, including those with whom you might disagree. And, you both acknowledge you believe in absolute truth. And though Jay did not come out and say so, I would think he would acknowledge that he sometimes makes mistakes in life like everyone else.
My questions for you all are:
1. How do we go about communicating (be specific) with those we disagree with when we all feel there is so much at stake?
2. What is the difference between pressuring someone and being a positive influence? On a practical level what does that look like?
3. What is the best way to approach college students who are on the fence with this issue? If you have SSA, what would you have liked others to say to you when you were trying to make a decision? And what would you say to a college student who is trying to decide whether or not to affirm a gay identity? Be as specific as you can.
September 23, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Jay,
OK, we really are talking past each other. It seems like such a simple concept to me, but clearly I’m not explaining it well. Forgive me my clumsy words.
First of all, I am NOT calling you delusional (funny that you take offense to that monicker, but not arrogant). I’m not calling you arrogant either. I’m actually trying to show you that we probably think the exact same way about this, it’s just that I articulate it differently, and I think that the particular articulation/understanding I have frees me to be disagreeable with my friends, but not unpleasant, even in the midst of deeply contrary opinions.
And since it does appear that we BOTH share the personality trait of “sensitivity”
, let me be clear in saying that I do NOT assert that your understanding/articulation makes it somehow harder for you to be disagreeable and pleasant with your friends. I’m just saying that I previously had a hard time remaining pleasant with my friends in the midst of our disagreement until I arrived at this particular understanding.
Let me rephrase things . . .
Let’s say that I believe X, when in fact Y is true, and X is not.
When I say that I believe X, it means that I THINK X is true, but in reality, it is not. But the mere fact that I believe X, means that to me, it’s true. Moreover, I believe that anyone who believes Y is wrong. That is my subjective reality. However, from an absolute truth perspective (i.e., objectively speaking), Y is in fact true.
So, there are a couple of ways I could profess my belief in X. I could say that it’s true, and while I respect those who believe in Y (and I respect them because I think that other people tend to be wrong about things), Y is clearly untrue, and anyone who believes it is just plain wrong. However, from the objective point of view, I look silly for proclaiming this, b/c I am in fact wrong about the matter.
As a concrete examples, let’s assume that I believe 1+1 =3. And let’s say that I use plain Scriptures, and logic, and scientific reasoning to prove this. Then I say to people who think that 1+1=2 are simply wrong. And then I say “well, I suppose they’re allowed their interpretation, b/c OTHER people are wrong about things sometimes.” Objectively speaking, this makes me look arrogant, b/c I don’t acknowledge that I could have misinterpreted Scripture, and inappropriately applied mathematical formulas to arrive at my conclusion. But not only am I arrogant, I’m also wrong.
Another way to approach my belief in X is to boldly proclaim that I believe X to be true, and to live my life accordingly. But I can recognize that I *might* not be correct, and that people who believe Y *might* be correct – b/c after all, some people make mistakes (including myself). So, not only do I respect those who believe Y, but I acknowledge that they might be right. I don’t BELIEVE they are right. I BELIEVE they are wrong. But by taking a posture that says “I might be wrong”, I’m open and able to receive the facts that lead me to the objective truth (Y).
In other words, if I acknowledge that I might be wrong about 1+1=3, I place myself in a position to receive new facts and knowledge which would point me to the objective truth that 1+1=2. If, however, I am not able to admit that I might be wrong about my conclusion, there really isn’t much chance that my mind can change and I can come to understand the truth.
So my statement about delusion was not one of name-slinging towards you. It was just a general statement about what types of minds are unable to accept correction. Perhaps I should give you some context. I’m a psychiatric pharmacist, and I work mostly with people with schizophrenia. What fascinates me about the schizophrenic brain is that the people with the disease have these false, fixed beliefs, and they are completely incapable of recognizing that they might be wrong about their beliefs. Delusional is the psychiatric definition for people who hold false, fixed beliefs. So I wasn’t calling you delusional, I was simply pointing out that people who cannot recognize that they currently hold false beliefs are generally either arrogant (perhaps narcissistic) or delusional. Personally, I doubt you are either. I think that ultimately you see this as I do, but we just explain it differently. But I could be wrong about that
So, take that for what it’s worth. If you still haven’t a clue what I’m talking about, I’m more than happy to drop it. Again, I’m not trying to be a jerk here . . . just trying to explain how I think we’re actually on the same page. But if it’s just not clicking, I don’t know that there’s any other way I can explain it, other than to ask this question:
Do you currently believe anything that is objectively untrue? If you say no, then you are essentially saying that you NEVER arrive at false conclusions about things. I’d say the best answer that anyone could give is “probably”. I do not know WHICH of my beliefs is actually false (the mere fact that I believe them means that I subjectively THINK they are true), but the chances are that in my fallibility, I’ve arrived at SOME beliefs that are actually objectively false.
So if all that doesn’t quite explain where I’m coming from . . . I’ll just let that ship pass into the night
Karen,
Thanks for trying to defuse a potential bomb there
I do feel as though I’ve been attempting to answer those very questions you asked.
The first question you ask is at the very heart of my current conversation with Jay right now. As I’ve stated previously here, I think that when we can acknowledge that the possibility exists that I could be wrong about my current beliefs, it frees me from having to PROVE my particular belief to the other person. Once we’re beyond that, we can begin to dialogue openly and seriously about our points of disagreement, and understand where the other is coming from. I find that when you understand where another person is coming from, it’s difficult to simply write them off, or dismiss their views – even if you never accept them.
To the second point. It seems to me that pressuring someone tends to mean that you value your opinions more than you value the person. I am a positive influence when I simply live out what I believe. When people see the Spirit of God in me, that will tend to draw others to the Truth. After all, that is how we are to determine what is good and true: by fruits. I need not force someone else to accept my beliefs. That’s just pressuring (sometimes even emotionally bullying) people. If there is substance to my belief, then it will speak for itself. If my belief is inherently wrong and sinful, the fruit will show. When we all live this way in community, we toil and struggle and figure life out together.
To the third point, I honestly wouldn’t be any more specific than what I previously described. When I was trying to decide what I believed, I had this unhealthy knack of asking all of my loved, respected leaders what THEY thought I should do. (That’s the people-pleaser in me!) And they graciously gave me their opinion, and then proceeded to make sure that I followed it. BAD MOVES!
My counselor on the other hand REFUSED to tell me what he believed, b/c he knew that I’d only use him and his opinion as another crutch. I used to get SO ANGRY at him! But now I realize he did the best thing for me. He let me toil, and struggle, and work out my own salvation. And he wasn’t afraid that I’d arrive at a wrong answer, b/c ultimately we trust that Christ will lead us out of our horrible mistakes, and into brilliant truth when we mess up. That is, after all, what grace is all about.
Likewise, I don’t let people use me and my beliefs as their crutch. (I do let people know what I think, but I also give them broad sketches of some other beliefs out there.) I insist that they discover what they believe; that they listen for God’s voice in their life. My job is to support them and love them, regardless which path they choose. Even if they make (what I deem) a mistake, I usher them to Christ, and pray that we all find Truth as we seek and follow.
Jay, I’d actually really like to hear your own thoughts on Karen’s questions.
DJ
September 23, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Darren and Karen,
As much as I would like to continue this discussion, I really don’t have the time right now. I know it must seem very frustrating for me to put a toe in the water of discussion and not dive all the way in, but I’m trying to limit my online time at the GRE approaches. I will say this, though: thank you, Darren, for you patience and for your explanation.
I can’t exactly say how I would answer that question. I suppose we both have different definitions and philosophies surrounding concepts like belief. Those philosophies are difficult enough to articulate even when one has all the time in the world, and I simply don’t have that time right now. I thank you for the discussion, though, but I think due to both time and due to the fact that I still don’t really see where you’re coming from (which isn’t your fault at all, by the way) it would be best simply to drop it and move on.
I also don’t know if I can answer your questions right now, Karen. I apologize. Thank you for leading this conversation, though, and I hope that both of you have nice evenings and take care of yourselves.
September 23, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Totally understood, Jay. Again, I apologize if I came off a bit rude and forceful. Not my intention. Also sorry for the voluminous writing! Old (and bad) habit. Good luck on studying for GREs!
September 24, 2009 at 4:10 am
1. You communicate two things: 1) Your point of view, clearly, and 2) Your empathy. This is simple, though perhaps rarely done properly. The orthodox point of view (perhaps best expressed in the Catholic catechism), has nothing to do with going to hell, etc., but puts homosexual behaviour in its proper place, along with all other sins, does not make assumptions about the source of sexual orientation, and finally fully acknowledges the extents of the trial!
2. I think that for most ssa folk the pressure is internal. Being told that he’ll be kicked out of church for homosexual behaviour is not the major source of pressure. The pressure is that he wants to believe that homosexual behaviour is okay, which goes against his church’s believes. There are only two ways to change this – change his beliefs or change the church’s! Of course, in every church, there are people who don’t accept some or another part of its doctrine. They are perhaps working through it, etc. This should be pointed out to those working through this problem. They are not alone in this regard either. Take your time.
3. I would do what I said in 1) above, communicate the orthodox point of view as clearly and succinctly as possible, and communicate my empathy.
September 24, 2009 at 6:05 am
Karen, I’d like to clarify my answer to your question 2) a bit more, or perhaps rather answer more directly. Pressure I would define as coercing someone to do something that they otherwise wouldn’t. If I pressure someone to avoid doing something we all think is bad, I don’t think anyone would have a problem with it!
Saying, ‘Do this or you’ll be kicked out of church,’ is bad pressure. But presenting the teachings clearly and properly with empathy is not. The listener understands that that’s church doctrine, and if he ends up believing otherwise, then he’s in conflict with church doctrine. There’s no way of avoiding this fundamental reality.
Again, being in conflict with some parts of church doctrine does not mean ‘getting kicked out of church!’ There are various good ways of handling this pastorally – it depends on the situation.
In all this, I think it’s a good idea to be aware of what I would call ‘gay exceptionalism’, that is, the tendency to look at this issue too separately from everything else. The doctrine that places homosexual behaviour in its proper place among other sins is an attempt at avoiding gay exceptionalism. Pastorally, too, I think the same should be done. For example, this is certainly neither the first nor only issue which people have difficulty with or causes cognitive dissonance. People ought to be reminded of this.
September 24, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Karen,
Thanks for the link. Regarding someone being called a sinner, I was in fact limiting that to sexual expression or lack thereof in my comment. And yes, when extremists use the “sinner” phrase on another, I do find it attacking and hurtful. But then I observe them acting from unresolved shame as their premise, so I try to give it as little thought as possible wishing them a speedy evolution back to balance/happiness.
For me, taking a few lines in the Bible regarding homosexuality that contain no obvious back story is at best, tenuous. However, if one does their homework and gets into the culture of the times, much starts to fall into place for the pedophilia angle, which I believe is mandatory when designing a polarity model to assess sexual expression. One of the Ceasars whose name escapes me right now, would have sex with young boys and then murder them by throwing them off a cliff into the ocean. Needless to say, it was an intense time, maybe more than any other time in history, for sexual dysfunction. There was so much incest, rape, temple orgies, disease and pedophilia present throughout the Caesarian era, it makes great sense the church would make rules to abolish it. When taking this into context, reason begins complimenting more the faith angle and visa versa.
I teach Polarized Thought Processing and use this model in just about every area of life. If you picture a teeter totter diagram, it’s really pretty simple. When the teeter totter is a straight horizontal line, it’s balanced, when it is not, it’s imbalanced to varying degrees from minor to extreme.
Too much or too little exercise, food, water, sex, money, sleep, prayer, feelings, thoughts, work, school etc, can all be measured within oneself for their balance on the teeter totter polarity model. With religion / sex, I use a faith / reason polarity model. Too much faith on certain aspects and reason is diminished, too much reason and faith is diminished. So they both have to give and take so as not to polarize and exclude the other based out of conflicting extremes. Extremists at either end of the teeter totter spectrum tend to be highly judgmental, therefore fights conflict and struggle can and usually do ensue when engaged.
Using reason with sexuality when born and raised in a reason / faith model can be very difficult, and I see it hurting people’s lives. With all polarized conditions, the premise needs to be assessed and resolved to bring balance back into focus. With celibacy on a too much sex / no sex model based in shame as it’s premise, it falls into extremes causing conflict and struggle because fear is innately imbalanced in and of itself. Much of faith based sexuality falls into the shame category for fear of judgment, so that premise would need to be assessed with a faith / reason model for balance to take place. I feel all info needs to be present to make a proper assessment.
With Ghandi-like celibacy, the premise is helping humanity through loving action, a noble goal. People like Ghandi or the Dalai Lama in this humanitarian category are fairly adept at understanding how to balance energy and therefore get a lot of kudos for their trek. They don’t do celibacy out of shame or fear of judgment as their love based premise is more than not, always a winner. But this trek is not for everyone, especially if one is not a humanitarian “bridge builder”. i will also say you don’t need to be celibate to be a humanitarian “bridge builder” as there are many examples, Andrew Marin, Brad and Angie, Ellen and Portia to name a few.
As far as the idea “you should be in relationship for marriage and children”, the premise for that would have to be assessed to see if it is fear or love based and how it fits the faith / reason model. The first question i would ask someone with that take, is “why”, and go from there and run it through the model.
This polarity model is only one way to look at life, but it seems to have worked quite well for people that use it to honestly assess their beliefs. The beautiful thing about balance, is you can then focus more in present time, loving acts, be productive, spontaneous etc. As Jesus said, “be ye more child like”. That’s what happens when one is in balance regarding difficult issues. I find it to be a great payoff.
Please only take this as having meaning for me and those that use it. For anyone else, they of course can judge for themselves how such a model may work for them. I hope this answers your questions.
September 24, 2009 at 3:43 pm
PS Karen, I really like your communication style.
September 25, 2009 at 2:12 am
Hello,
There are alot of words on this page, and I have read some of them, but kind of got lost when it turned into a discussion of semantics. I found it by following a trail from a blog from a guy at Wheaton.
Thanks for the information presented, I guess I just wanted to ask for some help or information? I grew up in a Baptist home, attended a well known Christian school, and grew up in church, but never believed anything.
I identified as gay my whole life and have only dated guys through high school and college. I recently accepted Christ as my Saviour and am in some confusion on what to do.
Who or what am I now? I have ended the relationship I was in and have been attending a good church, but am unsure how to pursue Christ.
I have shared my testimony with some supportive friends in church, but need more information than friends can provide. Please help if you can. Thanks.
September 25, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Saul–Thanks for sharing your suggestions and thoughts. It sounds like you favor grace and truth hand in hand. That is a hard balance to strike, but I believe the right one.
Cass- your philosophical approach makes a lot of sense. It actually reminds me of something Tim Keller, pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church wrote in an article entitled “Centrality of the Gospel.” He writes, “Gospel renewal occurs when we keep from walking ‘off-line’ either to the right or to the left. The key for thinking out the implication of the gospel is to consider the gospel a ‘third’ way between two mistaken opposites. However, before we start we must realize that the gospel is not a half-way compromise between the two poles–it does not produce ’something in the middle,’ but something different from both.”
Where Keller might differ from you is that he sees balance as something more than the middle between two extremes. But an altogether different third way. Specifically, in regards to sexuality, he writes, “The secularist/pragmatist sees sex as merely biological and physical appetite. The moralist tends to see sex as dirty or at least a dangerous impulse that leads constantly to sin. But the gospel shows us that sexuality is to reflect the self-giving of Christ. He gave himself completely without conditions. So we are not to seek intimacy [and then try to] hold back control of our lives. If we give ourselves sexually we are to give ourselves legally, socially, personally–utterly. Sex only is to happen in a totally committed, permanent relationship of marriage.”
If sex is primarily about release or attempts to meet personal needs–then balance between two extremes of over-sex or no sex makes sense. However, if sex is not primarily about release or personal needs, but giving up ourselves as Christ gave up himself–and the sexual union between two people is a mystical representation of that, then, we see a different dynamic at work. One that involves sacredness and the centrality of a life-long committed relationship.
On another note, I wonder how suffering fits into the concept of Polarized Thought Processing? You touched on it peripherally. That is, sometimes celibacy is a suffering of sorts that one undertakes for the greater good–thus Gandhi, Dalai Lama, Mother Teresa, etc. I can also think of other instances where celibacy is simply imposed by life circumstances. For example, I know of an elderly woman in Russia who was never able to marry because she had a large red birth mark on her face and no one wanted her. This was not her desire to live a single, celibate life, it was simply the reality that was imposed on her. And having casual sex would have been a completely unwelcome and offensive suggestion to her.
Christian theology has a place for the reality of suffering. That is, sometimes, we choose to persevere through undesirable circumstances for the sake of what is right and good. Celibacy is not the normal state of things. The majority of people all have an innate drive to couple with another person–physically and emotionally, and more than that to share our lives with someone. But there may be circumstances that prevent that. Not because one is living a polarized life, but because one has subjected their sexuality to the authority of Christ. So, I choose celibacy outside of heterosexual marriage, not because I want to be celibate, but because in doing so, I am upholding the sacredness of sex. That is, self-restraint becomes the greater good when sex is not available in its proper context. For more of my thoughts on the value of chastity/celibacy, see my post here: http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/the-c-word/
PS–As far as the NT referring primarily to pederasty and orgies, that is debatable. There is actually evidence of homoerotic relationships during that time period that are similar to gay relationships today. Romance and all. And since Paul places his argument in the context of creation in Romans 1, he seems to have broader perspectives in mind. The NT does not specifically mention pederasty–it just says males were desiring sex with other males. See also my post on Jesus on homosexuality.
Daemon–thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment. Its good to hear from you. That is awesome that you are exploring a new relationship with Christ and seeking to discover yourself in that process. Building a relationship with God takes time. We grow spiritually over the months and years. And what may seem foggy now will begin to gain clarity. Here are a few thoughts and perhaps others have other suggestions:
Who we are is based in Who created us. Our Creator knows who we are because he made us. So, we find our identity by seeking the Creator. In my own life that means all my desires, plans etc are subordinated to Christ. Scripture says, “Seek first his Kingdom.” Our life is not primarily about our sexuality. That is an important aspect to be sure. But who we are is more rooted in the reality of being the people of God. Scripture calls us a “kingdom of priests.” That is to say, people who are set a part for the sacred purpose of serving God. So, what does it mean for you to serve God? What would it look like for you to find your identity as Servant of God? And what would that mean on a practical level in terms of the decisions you make for your life. By that I don’t mean you need to become a pastor. Rather, how do you live for the Big Picture knowing that this life is short and its not primarily about finding self-gratification, but instead diving into this God-mission of making a difference in the world.
I think it starts with knowing who God is, and that can be as simple as setting aside time each day to seek God in prayer and ask him your questions. Journal them. Seek truth in Scripture. Talk to spiritually mature mentors. And over time these things become more clear.
You said you need more information than friends can provide, but I wasn’t sure what kind of information per se. If you are looking for fellowship with some guys who are also processing their sexuality and faith, there is a private Facebook group for guys that Jeff S. who posted a comment earlier is a part of. He might be a good person for you to connect with. I wonder about some older male mentors that are part of your church that might be good for you to connect with as well.
Don’t know if that helps, but food for thought.
September 26, 2009 at 5:36 am
Darren– There are so many comments, I overlooked responding to your suggestions. I really appreciate your humility in approaching the subject. I hear what you are saying about recognizing that there is mystery and room for changing our views. This does not mean we do not believe in absolute truth or that we do not firmly consider our current beliefs to be the correct ones. Rather, I see your suggestion as one in which we are always seeking truth, being open to the fact that there may (or may not) be another layer to the onion that gives us even greater enlightenment. Basically, it just helps us in conversation to not be self-righteous. But, instead really listen to what a person has to say and try to understand how they have come to the belief they have, even if its one we ultimately cannot agree with.
I also agree with you that there is much value in being forced to wrestle with our questions within ourselves, rather than just being spoon fed by others to believe what others want us to believe. What your counselor did was make you take responsibility for your own life–to figure out what you think and not just what others think. That way your belief is something you own, and not something you have simply borrowed from another.
I have two further questions to clarify your views:
1. You write: “If my belief is inherently wrong and sinful, the fruit will show.” I think this is often true, and its certainly the theology of the book of Proverbs. However, is this always true? Ecclesiastes would have a different perspective. The author wrestles with the reality that bad things happen to the righteous, while good things happen to the wicked. “There are righteous men to whom it happens according to the deeds of the wicked. On the other hand, there are evil men in whom it happens according to the deeds of the righteous” (8:14). Does sin always have an immediate tangible negative fruit? Sin can actually be quite fun and pleasurable. It can even provide tremendous relief. It wouldn’t be so compelling otherwise. And as Scripture says, Satan appears like an angel of light. We can be deceived into thinking that what is sin is actually good.
2. The second question I have is, What role does community play in our decision-making? Yes, we need to take ownership of our own decisions and not just go along with what someone else says. But as Proverbs 1:5 states: “A wise man will listen and increase in knowledge, and a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel.” Perhaps it has to do with why we are listening in the first place. Is it because we want to please that person? And so we are adopting their view to make the other person happy. Or are we listening to counsel so that we can consider it as one piece of our decision-making process. The whole point of the Body of Christ is that we “Encourage each other day after day as long as it is called Today” precisely because the Christian walk is too difficult alone. And we are susceptible to being misled by our own feelings. The community helps us to put things in proper perspective when we might be wandering off in an erroneous direction.
September 26, 2009 at 10:42 am
Karen,
Thanks for your notes and your question about suffering. To answer that question, first off so as to create some basis for Polarity Thought Processing, I’d like to add some info.
We live in a polarity energy field just by being born into Earth’s domain. It’s dualistic, night day, right wrong, N / S pole, poz and neg electrical currents. Every story movie play, life drama, starts out even or “good”, then takes a descent into drama or “bad”, it’s opposite, then resolves itself with an ending, happy or otherwise. This is the basis of every good hollywood script, and it’s the script our minds play all the time in everyday life. The underlying fuel for polarity is a mental decision. That decision discerns as right or wrong or judges as good or bad. A discerning decision could be placing a flower pot in a certain position that seems “right” for a room. A judgmental decision is someone deciding it’s a horrible (bad) plant the throws it in the trash, or loves it so much (good) they hide it in the basement so no one else can see it. Discernment attracts, Judgment repels.
So everything has it’s opposite here, in our minds and on the street. Hence there will always be an opposite opinion on just about everything. I like this, I don’t like that. That’s bad, that’s good.
In this system, we cannot have heterosexuality without homosexuality as it’s opposite. If we did, we would not be living in this world of polarity. Just like you can’t have sleep time without awake time, light without dark etc. So I see my responsibility as a human, is to realize the reality we live in called polarity, so as to understand and not judge it. Then I become more oneness oriented and “Christ-like”, “living in the world (with oneness) but not of the world (judgmental/polarized thinking)”. Mainly because if I get into polarity too far, I get confused and conflicted and as a result, suffer with the frustrating pull of opposites, in my mind.
Therefore, if I pick hetero over homosexuality to be “right”, I have entered the polarity game of opposites and confusion can ensue. Now by simply realizing they are two realities that exist in polarity sexuality, and that’s all they are, I walk out of the game into oneness, God, Christ, soul thinking, balance etc, and see it for what it really is. If I “decide” to judge that physical polar reality, I have taken my first step into “suffering”, because I was made in the “image and likeness of God”, and am not split into two realities on my soul level. Then the biggest polarity of all comes up, mind thinking vs soul thinking.
The mind splits realities because the mind’s nature is polarity itself as it is a survival mechanism and must “discern” mentally what is “right” for it’s continuance. Hence the first trek into polarity. When someone “judges” another’s sexuality as good or bad, then the descent into fear comes into play. Ah, the beast within, thinks it can make 2 polarities actually be one, or man’s thinking be Christ’s thinking. That’s impossible. The mind has to be tamed away from intense polar thinking by Christ, soul, oneness reality, however you want to term it. I see this as the goal of all religions/spiritual paths when it comes right down to it, the return to love/oneness if you will.
One of the greatest responses I had to accepting Christ is how things seemed to line up and one feels so fully connected and unconflicted. That’s because the mind has been tamed to think otherwise about the world. More love, less judgment. It is a great thing.
The mind gets lost in it’s judgements/opinions and therefore suffers as a result when the stakes are high. Hence “judge not lest ye be judged” becomes, judge not, as you leave your natural state of oneness/love/Christic thinking, and become judgmental or judgment itself, living in the domain of the mind, rather than the domain of the soul, or your God-self existing within. So when I see your blog title Pursuing God, I take that as pursuing the realization of the soul thinking that exists within our mind, not something outside the self I have to go looking for externally. And how does one think the thoughts of the soul? Through extreme non-judgment.
So with this, I have had to realign how I think about God as versed in the Bible. I have had to take out all judgmental/punishment writings that God judges anything. “Seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven” to me means to find the self in you that does not judge, and you will find oneself one step closer to what that line truly means. The “absolute truth” in my thinking, is to know you are not your mind, but your soul, the “image and likeness of God”.
The mind loves drama, and drama is only created through opposites. So as humans we pick our dramas, our polarity games to play, whether we like it or not. Sex is a huge stage to play this out on if one chooses. Some choose sex, some choose other things. To say “submit one’s sexuality to the authority of Christ” means to me, you do not judge any sex act, at all, as good or bad, but as an experience provided by the physical domain to choose to take part in or not, thereby staying pure in thought and out of judgment.
This brings up the “woman at the well” story. From my perspective, Jesus did not tell her to “go and sin no more” because she was having sex with men for money. She had gotten herself into a horrible situation that could have cost her her life, and that may have come from her own judgments about her job as a prostitute. I don’t think anyone likes to sell their body for money and have sex with strangers. That was her downfall which I think Jesus saw ultimately, not the sex act itself. It was how she was using sex to degrade herself.
Now if someone goes out on the town and has casual sex without degradation, fine. Then someday they might like something deeper, or not. There’s McDonalds and there’s The Ritz, but many have eaten at both without judging it. Some people can’t stand the Ritz, and some people can’t stand McDonalds, but we don’t make a big deal out of it. But it is the nature of the “fallen mind” to have opinions about both. So from a pure state of thought, neither sex scenario of loving committed vs casual, or gay relationships vs straight relationships, is any more or less than the other, they are both simply experiences and neither needs to be judged. Or then conflict enters, separation/polarity wins with pureness of thought eclipsed. Hence the sexual-religious wars continue.
For me, it is important to remember that thinking of things in polarity good or bad (insanity), is “of this world” not living “in this world” with oneness (sanity) as basis. If someone is suffering, they are in polarity (lower mind) most likely with a punishment/judgment model as it’s basis. Looking at where they have judged something (by the “beast” within, the judgmental mind), would be their first step out of suffering, an unnatural state. I think all conflict boils down to a negative judgment.
I see the “importance of suffering” as the lesson in remembering our true non judgmental, non polarized self, and much insight can come from that, which is extremely valuable. Suffering can be “good” in that respect, because it denotes one has work to do to resolve unrighteous or polarized judgmental thinking. That is why it can be important to suffer, so as to realize step by step, one’s way out of it.
The ultimate lesson is realizing that this reality is all a big drama but not really our real or “true” nature, the “absolute truth”. Using sex at any level, celibacy or casual, is only negative when it is used to eclipse your God/soulself within. I have witnessed that both states of sexual expression can eclipse or combine “God”. It seems it need not be an either/or situation str8 or gay concerning the sexual expression itself as I have been in relationship with both men and women.
Hope this makes sense. It’s taken me a long time to realize it’s validity as it’s the hardest lesson ever, not to judge. And of course, I’m still a work in progress. I almost killed myself from polarizing over a situation of sexual betrayal and stolen money. It took me years to reconcile it and Christ of course, was my ace card. He (my soul/God self within) actually told me not to judge it the day it happened. But did I listen? Hah, and so it goes.
I would be interested to hear how this model might play out in your life and reasoning, if at all?
Thanks for listening Karen, you have a lot to give and have given me food for thought.
Daemon,
What an amazing cross road you are at. I wish you the very best on your journey and urge you to keep writing on blogs as your life journey seems quite up for movement. I’m glad you have enjoyed reading these comments, it’s good information. I’d like to hear more from you about what brought you to this point, if you feel so drawn.
September 26, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Karen,
Thanks for the encouraging words. I am involved in my local church and have been making some great Christian friends who know where I am coming from in life.
I posted a brief bio on my new blog of what has transpired in my life. Don’t worry, its pretty brief.
http://icarusalways.blogspot.com/
I am taking it one day at a time now.
September 27, 2009 at 8:18 am
Thom–I just noticed that two of your comments from around September 23rd were stuck in my spam box. I didn’t see them until today. Sorry about that. I have posted them now. I agree with you that sometimes it is within the Christian community that it is even harder to be more open and real. I noticed that about my Christian college in undergrad days. There was a pressure to appear as a “good Christian” who had it together. There is an unspoken rule that its not okay to have problems. This fosters secrecy, etc. That is why I think sometimes affirming LGBT folk are healthier than ex-gays. Ex-gays often live in secrecy, fearful of being found out etc. While LGBT are much more transparent and authentic about their lives. There isn’t this split.
Daemon–thanks for sharing your bio. I enjoyed reading it and hope to see you around cyberspace.
Cass–thanks for the stimulating conversation. I was wondering if you could clarify a few things for me. You write: “The underlying fuel for polarity is a mental decision. That decision discerns as right or wrong or judges as good or bad.”
What is the difference between discernment and a judgment? You say discernment attracts and judgment repels. Yet in your description above they seem to be the same thing.
You write: “When someone “judges” another’s sexuality as good or bad, then the descent into fear comes into play.”
What about the sexuality of pederasty?
You write, “I have had to take out all judgmental/punishment writings that God judges anything.”
What is your concept of justice? In the Bible the word often translated “judgment” is mishpat. It means “justice.” So a judgment is a decision in favor or against something. For example, in the Old Testament what God “judges” is mistreatment of the poor, the orphan, widow, etc. That is, he makes a decision against these injustices (says they are bad) and commands that they be stopped. It is the fact that he makes a judgment that then leads him to seek to end injustice. If he made no judgment about these things, he would simply allow the orphan and the widow to continue to be mistreated because he has no opinion about whether or not it is good or bad.
You write: “To say “submit one’s sexuality to the authority of Christ” means to me, you do not judge any sex act, at all, as good or bad, but as an experience provided by the physical domain to choose to take part in or not . . .”
What about rape?
I am curious if you believe in any concept of evil. And also what you think of Jesus’ statements that clearly make judgments: “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile a man” (Mark 8:21-23).
September 27, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Karen, good questions for a Sunday.
First off I’d like to say that my goal of understanding and teaching polarity is not to collapse it completely, but bring it into an intensity that does not cause extremes that hurt and disable people emotionally. The more people study polarity that is native to their mind’s, the more they drop it’s value and come more into peace. That for me is fulfilling.
We all live in polarity, and it’s not our natural state, and to get out of polarity completely, I believe one would have to leave the physical plane, and “ascend”. Even Jesus, though he forgave the guards that crucified him, I would think he still felt the nails spear and crown of thorns. Pain and pleasure in the body is in itself, a polarity model.
Regarding rape and pederasty, I get really down when it comes to child sexual abuse. I have an intense sadness that brings me to tears if a child’s story goes on long enough. I have had to really pray on that and resolve my immense emotional charge around it. Evil is just a depraved mind doing crazy things. That I can have compassion for, the result of their acts is what gets me of which I am working on.
I try to bring all my “judgments” to a more mild discernment in order to maintain my own sense of peace. Rape definitely raises the bar.
With prayer btw, what many people don’t realize, is that when they pray, they are praying in a polarity model. When some people pray for some fearful negative thing within them to disappear, they do it with contacting a loving source, God Jesus etc. So that in itself is the opposites of love and fear meeting in the middle and hopefully collapsing back to balance/peace. These are cases when someone has polarized too much in a fearful state, and love, it’s opposite, brings things back to point zero. If the negs still continue that they are praying about, (actually applying love to fear), they are praying about the wrong thing. Or an aspect of the thing they are praying about has not been deduced fully and there are other aspects afoot.
Regarding discernment vs judgment. Imagine there are two people debating whether homosexual sex is a sin or not. One says yes, one says no. Now put them on a line, a spectrum and put them both in the middle at a zero point. They are laughing, shaking hands for the first time, like each others clothes or what-not, we will call that “love”. Now on the left and right the numbers stretch from 1 to 10 along the line. At the 10-points we will call that fear. At zero point they are in that friendly loving position. They could both sit down and pray or meditate and have a good go of it. Now they start the debate. Both start to state their cases, which would indicate discernment, laying out the case etc without much fanfare. So their polarity goes to a 3 with a little uncomfortableness but still giggly. Then one says that gays are evil and should be punished. They go to a 5, the breaking point between mental discernment and emotional judgment. As they go along, they get pretty nasty and start calling each other names, out of emotional judgment stuck in the you’re bad / I’m good model, hit a10 and start throwing chairs. So discernment and judgment in this model depicts intensity of emotion from light to harsh. And though I said discernment attracts and judgment repels, that is true but only to a degree. I would have to add “partially” to make the statement correct. Because we have opposing teams, they will have their cheering base pro and con. Even a simple discernment can get another person emotionally riled up to the hate of judgment, but for this model, I focus just on the debaters themselves.
I do believe that evil comes out of the minds of men as Jesus says in the Mathew quote. I also believe there are good and bad spirits that can have effect on us. Jesus is one of them. I do not believe there is one devil, but a confused mind in everyone and we do strange things sometimes, just like there is a piece of God/love in all of us. We would make up the collective God/Devil model of good and evil, mind and heart, which we are quite practiced at as a race.
It is interesting you brought up that particular passage from Mathew, because it is indicative of Jesus’ stance on homosexuality as a non-issue. That verse is almost exactly the same as two other writers in the Bible who degrade homosexuality if not taken into the phedophile context.
It’s in Corinthians and Timothy;
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
KJV (King James Version, 1611): Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:9-11
KJV (King James Version, 1611): Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
Jesus says here;
“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile a man” (Mark 8:21-23).
Jesus excluded Homosexuality, and I think for good reason. I feel he knew that one’s sexuality is a primary state of being, not a state of doing as murderers thieves and pedophiles “do” awful things. I believe he knew sexuality was unchangeable, and therefore natural and unquestionable. I also think due to the “times” he lived in, he may have been doing “Obama style” with the gay issue and not focusing on it as a main item.
When it comes to Justice and Judgment, I place justice in the same category as discernment, a fairly tame mental emotional action. This is obvious when one gets a traffic ticket and the fine gets reduced upon appearing in court and the judge passes “judgment”. In that definition of “judgment” it is fairly benign, but there are a few definitions of that word in the dictionary going from mild to harsh and they fit both models.
As far as erasing negs that “God” does in the Bible. It is pretty obvious throughout, that God is the ultimate “judge”. And either you will go to heaven or hell depending on your behaviors etc. This model is based in the fear of death and hell, so in a sense quite corrupt from the onset, as one is always scurrying to be perfect to escape God’s terrifying death knell. I feel this is very crazy making and spurs polarity on to the max, hence the intent to be “perfect” becomes fractured. I have had to be quite “discerning” when perfecting a true definition of “God” for myself, as I do not think it is “God’s” intent to have us scared and “worried” all the time about the past and it’s effects on our future. I believe the “Last Judgment” is our own, and is when we depart polarity judgments as a race and will actually witness the last of Judgment itself, living in mild discernment, bringing about a “1000 years of peace”.
God polarizes to extremes in the Bible, as in Sodom and Gomorrah. He wipes out an entire city for the sake of the few that were unfriendly to strangers. This “God” would live in polarity and have to be physical for this context to be applicable. Possibly a man that used the term “God” as the destructor, even though it is now found that volcanic activity was the destructive cause. Not unlike Jerry Falwell calling AIDS God’s punishment towards gays, totally inept as epidemics of disease have occurred in worse intensity in history.
Now a higher “God” that is out of polarity and non-physical, looking in if you will, I think would look at the entire polarity system and see it as insane. That would be because an entity without polarity would be in such a higher state of peace, to entertain a polarity state “veiled” as sane would be impossible. I believe this state of higher God-peace, well, we depart that at birth, making being born in “sin” or eclipsed from God and peace, a rational statement. That is why I think jesus is called the “Prince of Peace”. He is trying to remind us of our real true and honest nature, which is pure unpolarized peace. That state on a consistent basis is near impossible while in a body, particularly if one is preoccupied with acceptance / rejection, perfect / imperfect polar models, which can be very unconscious.
In the polarity model, “heaven” or partially thereof would be zero point at center, a state of peace where you could then rise up into higher states of heaven, even out of body ascending to “all that is” with a “higher” non-polarity God so to speak. I believe this is what Jesus meant when he said “these things you shall do and more” talking about raising the dead and healing the sick. On the extremes of the polarity model, we are totally cut off from that possibility, yet only in that moment.
If in fact our true state is perfect peace and being one with God knowing “all that is”, then from that angle, this entire physical world, bodies and it’s polarity guise, are not even real and completely insane no matter what you do or think here. And maybe there is no judgment at all by a higher God, and that he is simply looking at us smiling while nodding his head back and forth, waiting for us simply to buy a bus ticket home and knock off the charade already.
The irony is that as long as we think in polarity terms, or better said, as long as we think back and forth all the time with our physical brains, we are pretty much mind-eclipsed from “peace” or “God” unless we are at zero point all the time, which is nearly impossible. So are we in a living hell? Some would say yes. I would say, get as happy as possible by dropping harsh judgments about self and others. “be ye like little children” as it may be as good as it gets here, which isn’t half bad, but nonetheless, still half.
So why are we here? Maybe to experience what it is like to be veiled and try to remember our true nature, and never do anything again to leave it once the lesson is learned. Or maybe just to experience what fear is like. Or maybe we just wanted a scary time in the haunted house at the universal county fair, for fun. Now that makes me at least smile. : )
It’s really great chatting with you Karen. I hope this comes across as somewhat sane. An extremist might simply toss this all out the door. I appreciate your open mind.
September 28, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Hi Cass, Thanks for sharing more of your thoughts. I will have to beg off the conversation for awhile as school work is getting me bogged down. But, did want to respond briefly.
I think in some respects we may be talking about similar things but using different terms. It sounds like you are using the term “judgment” to mean “condemnation.” Whereas for me, the term judgment merely refers to a decision that relates to social justice (this is how it is used in Scripture).
The polarity philosophy sound very Eastern in that it seems to promote detachment. That is, being balanced or at peace is to essentially not be disturbed by anything positive or negative. But to stay neutral. You write: “I have an intense sadness that brings me to tears if a child’s story [of sexual abuse] goes on long enough. I have had to really pray on that and resolve my immense emotional charge around it. . . I try to bring all my “judgments” to a more mild discernment in order to maintain my own sense of peace.”
To me, this sounds like you are trying to reduce your distress about sexual abuse and rape so as to maintain peace and balance. Is that accurate? Whereas, I think it is our moral obligation to be outraged by such injustices. And it is that sense of outrage that stirs us to bring justice to the world. I used to work with criminals and an Antisocial Personality Disorder is when a person no longer feels disturbed by someone else’s pain. They have become numb to it. I hope I never feel peace when it comes to such things.
You also mentioned in a previous comment that those who are suffering are operating on a lower level and stuck in polarity. But I have difficulty seeing how that is meaningful on a practical level. That would mean nothing to the child stuck in a brothel being raped every day. She is suffering because suffering is real. Suffering is not an illusion.
You also write: “Evil is just a depraved mind doing crazy things.”
I guess the question is, if you believe that evil exists, who decides what is evil? And how do you discern that? To acknowledge evil is to acknowledge that some things are right and some things are wrong.
As for the biblical reference to Jesus. There is nothing in those texts that refer to pedophilia. Pederasty was common at the time, but there were also adult homosexual relationships (unless gay people are a new evolutionary phenomena of the 21st century). I wrote a post regarding these verses which strongly suggest that Jesus did not support homosexuality: http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/2008/11/19/jesus-on-homosexuality/#comments
Lastly and then I’ll stop talking!
You write: “It is pretty obvious throughout, that God is the ultimate “judge”. And either you will go to heaven or hell depending on your behaviors etc. This model is based in the fear of death and hell, so in a sense quite corrupt from the onset, as one is always scurrying to be perfect to escape God’s terrifying death knell. I feel this is very crazy making and spurs polarity on to the max, hence the intent to be “perfect” becomes fractured.”
This is what many people think of when they think of the Old Testament. And it is something I used to think too. Its such an unfortunate thing because the Bible actually teaches the exact opposite. Most of our impressions of this come from scattered verses taken out of context. One only has to read Nehemiah 9 to see how merciful God is in forgiving over and over. And what was God so upset about? That people were murdering, oppressing low class workers, violating the poor, the orphan and widow. Personally, I want a God who cares about social justice and gets upset when people are evil and cruel to each other.
The message of the Bible is that God’s love for us has nothing to do with behavior or perfectionism. As Paul the Apostle says, God is even willing to forgive murderers as Paul was. Titus 3:4-5 is a good summary: “But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared. He rescued us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy.”
Also Jesus says that he actually explains God. He is the physical representation. So he says, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” To see Jesus is to know the heart of the Father–heart of the Old Testament God.
I grew up in legalism and had to really work through feeling I had to be perfect and measure up. I thought God was that way. It was amazing to discover that I had been wrong about the God of the Bible all along. He is more loving and merciful than we can imagine. I write about that here: http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/2007/07/10/recovering-from-fundamentalism/
Also, some thoughts on what it is that we are being “saved” from: http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/2007/07/17/the-chance-to-be-free/
Anyway, this is longer than I intended. Sorry about that. Thanks again for the great conversation!
September 28, 2009 at 9:50 pm
Thank you also Karen, it has been fun!
Peace,
C
September 29, 2009 at 8:28 am
Karen,
I will do short cut on your questions as best I can. I realize even if you want to get studying, you did ask some questions and I would like to answer. Here goes.
When I say suffering is a low level of polarity, then we get into highs and lows, which is itself polarity. For the sake of teaching I use that, with a goal of “outgrowing” strong polarities eventually.
“Suffering” in resolving gay sexuality through abstinence, seems to get raised to hero status for some, which I find still encompasses a depressed state in the area of sexuality, as that is what shame causes. So in that, there is some conversation that could take place at a later time possibly.
I like to see us all in an experience, without polarity judging going on all the time. You’re a sinner, but your not sort of thing. You’re “saved” and your not etc. That right / wrong thinking separates and divides and is partially why Christianity gets a bad rap. The word sin was not even coined until the 8th century and the meaning changed from being “off mark” to, your going to hell and your not etc.
When I talked about my reaction to sexually abused kids, it was a reaction that was disabling to me to the point I really could not be helpful. So my desire is not to detach, but to come to discernment, instead of such pain, so as to then be helpful.
Regarding Jesus and homosexuality; I think it is important to remember that Jesus’ life was cut short, he did not have his own “book” in the Bible, and died 60 some years before the first Biblical writings were penned. From that I take that there was much teaching he did not get to do, nor did he “approve” Biblical NT writings, which would have been quite helpful. So as far as homosexuality being approvable or not, this is where I have to use my common sense.
Having experienced both str8 and gay relationships, I can attest, the love/sexual love is the same, neither one “good or bad” over the other. I did not have a “better life” with a woman over a man or visa-versa. They were both ecstatic. So I take it out of polarity judgment of good/evil into the non polarized “experience model”, living and loving one day at a time.
What I do know, and few seem to realize, is that when we are truly loving another human being, sexually or not, we are “loving God”. We feel the love we are meant to feel, as we are all God-souls in bodies and that is where a large part of experiencing the love of God resides for us as humans, in loving each other. We are hu-man or hue-man, part spark or hue of God-light, the other part physical man, and both must be honored to balance those two diverse realities.
When someone is gay and raised in a strict anti-gay Christian family, I find they have a huge acceptance / rejection model to resolve, and that can be horrifying, for which I have deep compassion. It’s so tainted with the good / evil polarity model, that a life of swinging back and forth becomes common for many, with suffering (“struggle”) as the underlying ever present painful emotion, even when they are feeling on top of their game. Hence guilt and shame become the intonation for their sexual reality. Guilt is “I did something bad”. Shame is “I am something bad”. This combination is a vicious cocktail underlying and fixating struggle. There is no addictive drug as debilitating as this. Some will do anything to resolve it due to the rejection they suffer. But many do so without loving their innate sexuality and it’s expression, and toss it in the evil bin, simply creating more polarity for themselves to wrestle with. And from my perspective, polarity is the mother of all illusions. “Now I’m seeking perfection by becoming celibate instead of sexual” becomes a norm for some. But really what is happening from my perspective, is they are swinging on polarity, still not resolving the underlying issue of shame, thereby feeling peaceful at “zero-point” is at best, fleeting.
People don’t have sexual guilt and shame because they think gay sex is wrong. They have sexual shame because they don’t understand sexuality fully, and are missing or ignoring key information.
My recipe for resolve on this, is to focus on resolving the str8-based carefully orchestrated externally induced shame one has self-acquired about ones unchangeable gay state of being, as that is truly possible, and nix trying to throw ones sexuality out of mind, as that is impossible. Then one can get off the polarity swing and can live a loving sexually fulfilled life with ones “other half”.
When trying to resolve ones anti-gay str8 based faith with innate gay sexuality, I feel it must come with some common sense by focusing on the true culprit, sexual self-shame, to be doable, or difficulty can continue eternally, lifetime after lifetime. And this focus is not just limited to the gay individual, but the family and friends that share the same sexual shame from lack of education, if they are willing.
Happy studying Karen and thanks for listening and sharing your views. It has been quite enjoyable talking with you.
September 30, 2009 at 8:59 am
PS On the question of whether I am “Eastern” in philosophy. No, I am not philosophy oriented when it comes to sexuality as philosophy is based on opinion and a maybe this / maybe that feature, which sustains confusion.
I go to the info of origin, the owners manual of the human mind. The owners manual for human sexuality is the trump card to all opinion or any religious railings. I speak from the human sexual brain, pure knowledge, which is the sexual human hard drive of undisputable fact, tens of thousands of years old dwarfing all religious conjecture.
My trek when I am in the midst of opinions about hard wired sexuality is: “Instead of having opinions and fantasies about your sexual hard drive, why not own it first without distortion, and see if the opinions about it still fit”.
Resolving the distortion is the key to peace in this situation. My take is that the human sexual hard drive gets distorted and damaged due to unresolved adult /child physical sexual abuse, the most horrifying and disorienting wound visited on the human psyche.
So if one cleans up their sexual abuse issues, realigning or “reformatting” the damaged human sexual hard drive, then I believe the entire sex-swing over-sex to under-sex disappears.
I took a few years and did just that as mother sexual abuse to sons is so under observed it is uncanny. And no, nothing changed as far as my attractions, not even one tiny bit. I just felt much clearer about life in general and found my sexuality had become more balanced and loving. The biggest thing I noticed was that my narsicism disappeared and I felt much more comfortable in groups, much more connected in a loving way to my human bros and sis’s and in my own skin. I lost the flightiness and could finally sit still and “be”, as I always felt fast, like I was running. That all disappeared.
So when a person is over or under indulgent in sex, my first red flag is sexual abuse, father to daughter / mother to son for starters, with religion as an add-on as a potential coping mechanism for some s’emblence of peace. There is no deeper shame than what comes with sexual abuse. And it’s effects cannot be prayed away. Only good professional help in my opinion, is the answer.
The writers of scripture did not understand sexuality like we do today, and most of them were probably sexually abused without resolve, short of conjecture, which is what most confused gay and straight Christians are running on today when it comes to sexual confusion and fighting about it.
The reason it is so volatile is because sexual abuse wounds are so haneous, the fallout later in life is deafening on many fronts. All the yelling back and forth in my opinion, is just sexually abused kids acting our their pain “hoping” for resolution.
Facing sexual abuse takes an inordinate amount of valor, but nonetheless, the responsible thing to do.
OK, I’ll shut up now.
September 30, 2009 at 9:07 am
GRowing up in the southern baptist church knowing I was gay from elementary school was the hardest thing I’ve come through in my life.
As an adult in a longterm committed monogamous lesbian relationship, I think that we need to stop thinking about ourselves. What about the kids?
I promise you that in every children’s ministry there is at least one child that is homosexual. They may o may not know it yet. Demonizing it and putting this shameful stigma on it will cause them to not want to even admit to it.
Children need to have adults willing to say this is me, I am a christian, this is my life as an example. I had no Christian lesbian example to look at and emulate. The only source for christian relationship advice is hetero oriented.
Homos and heteros need the same things.
September 30, 2009 at 9:11 am
Facing sexual abuse does take valor, as you say, and must be done. Sometimes it also takes help because an important step in the process of facing it is forgiving it. At first, that seems like an unreasonable request, but it is the only way to dis-own it and to stop building a life based on it. I was sexually-abused by a non-family adult male when I was 8. It did not define me, but it certainly distorted my view of sexuality and self to the point where I was uncomfortable with touching even so innocent as a handshake until I was in college. Naturally, that caused people to identify me as shy and withdrawn, which I was not. I was broken.
A few years ago I returned to the playground where the sexual abuse first began and I placed a penny in the dirt beneath the jungle jim. The penny was from the year in which the abuse took place. I left it there because I needed a small physical expression of my forgiveness. I realized that the man who abused me — created at one point in the image of God — had himself somehow been twisted by life to become an abuser. I forgave him . . . though . . . and let me be clear on this, if I knew where he was today, I would pursue the stiffest penalty of law against him to protect others from going what I went through.
Yes, we do need to approach our own sexual abuse issues with valor and overcome with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit and a very loving God. But, we also need to be alert and protective to keep this from happening to others. Those who have been through it and emerged whole realize it is an arduous journey.
Thom
http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/
September 30, 2009 at 9:22 am
Jen,
I also grew up in the Southern Baptist Church and am still actively involved there. The SBC doctrine is clear on homosexuality and has been affirmed. However, the denomination is coming around to the need to, within that doctrine, minister with grace rather than condemnation. I write for the SBC Voices blog and have covered this issue several times recently and am greatly encouraged by the attitudes of pastors and members who have responded. They haven’t chased me off. Indeed, the SBC has a ministry called The Way Out, which is striving to teach churches to be more open and loving, working within God’s Word to see those who act out on homosexuality as sinners just like everyone else in the pews, in need of repentance and redemption.
Being tempted is not a sin; acting out is. We’ve always known that as Southern Baptists, but many made an exception when it came to those who see themselves as homosexuals. We made that a sin.
If you would like to see the post on the SBC Voices website and the comments it provoked, here’s the link. It might be helpful to you:
http://sbcvoices.com/the-good-wife-in-real-life/
God Bless,
Thom
http://thom-signsofastruggle.blogspot.com/