Last week I had an invigorating and intriguing conversation with a new friend. “Pam” is a 50 something year old school teacher and gay Christian. We met for coffee and chatted for about three hours, sharing our “coming out” stories and where we are today with our faith and sexuality. Pam believes same-sex relationships are blessed by God. She also takes her spirituality seriously, having returned to Church fellowship seven years ago. We were both curious: here we were, two Christians with same-sex attractions who love God, yet have arrived at opposite conclusions about the morality of homosexuality. How did this happen? During our conversation we explored how each of us had processed the issue to land where we did.
How do we arrive at our conclusions regarding homosexuality? By this, I am not asking for a defensive apologetic to bolster a particular position. Rather, I am asking for the how, not the what. Let me explain by sharing part of Pam’s story and mine.
Pam became a believer as a teenager, around the same time she also began to acknowledge her same-sex attractions. She attempted to discuss her sexuality with other Christians, but was often met with primitive “fire and brimstone” lectures. Thus, she processed much of her sexuality on her own and concluded that the only way she could have these feelings in the first place—feelings she didn’t choose and that felt so innate—was if God had created her that way. So in her late teens/early 20s, she decided homosexuality was okay with God and became involved in same-sex relationships. At the same time, she also decided, based on her previous conversations with Christians about her sexuality, that church was no longer a place where she felt understood or accepted. She stayed away from church for thirty years.
Yet, as God so often works, he began to draw Pam back into fellowship with other believers. After three decades away, she began attending church again seven years ago. At first it was difficult for her to find a congregation that was both gay affirming and orthodox in its beliefs about Jesus, but eventually she settled comfortably into a local Presbyterian church. Pam believes Jesus died and rose from the dead. She loves God and wants to honor him with her life. She values the Scriptures. And she believes that sex should be reserved for a covenant relationship.
When Pam first came back to Church, she prayed a “risky” prayer (her description). She said, “Lord, if same-sex relationships are not okay, please, show me.” She then began to seriously examine what Scripture says about homosexuality—something she had not done before. In the end, she found gay-affirming theology convincing. Like Jack Rogers and Mel White, she believes the primary point of Scripture is love. If something does not cause harm, then it cannot be sin. Love God and love others—the whole of Scripture is summarized in this creed. How can a consensual, loving, covenant same-sex relationship be harmful? Thus, it must be acceptable before God.
Pam acknowledges that the Bible condemns homosexuality in certain places, but believes these verses refer to acts that were harmful (e.g. temple prostitution, pederasty, etc). And she considers Paul’s statements on homosexuality to reflect a particular Jewish perspective of that time period that did not include what we know about sexuality through modern science. In the end, Pam felt her experience, her study of the Scriptures, understanding of science, and her prayers (spiritual conviction) allowed her to affirm same-sex relationships.
As we dialogued, we agreed that each of us put more weight on different aspects. For Pam, her experience served as a primary compass early on. Her same-sex attractions felt innate, so she must have been created by God this way. On the other hand, she did not put much weight on body theology (e.g. gender complementarity). She did place emphasis on the Scriptures—she even brought her Bible to our meeting—and eagerly shared her insights from her studies in the Word. She interpreted Scripture’s definition of love as being “no harm.” And, she interpreted Scripture through her understanding of psychology. That is, we understand sexual orientation today in a way people did not thousands of years ago. We did not discuss church tradition, anthropology or peer influence. However, those can also be factors for many people in their process of how they conclude what they do about homosexuality.
My process was somewhat different from Pam. While I also considered experience (one of my early journal statements was “it feels so natural, how can this be wrong”), yet Scripture was something I weighted more than experience. In my studies, I concluded that the biblical condemnation of homosexuality is still applicable today. And my interpretation of Scripture overruled my experience. Though, I did consider experience in a subordinate way. While I also emphasized the Great Commandments to love God and love others, as did Pam, I believed Scripture’s definition for love was more than no harm. Certainly, it means no harm. But, for me it also included obedience and sacrifice. Jesus said, “If you love me, you will obey my commands.” In Scripture I saw specific commands regarding sexual ethics. Even when I did not understand all the reasons why same-sex relationships are wrong—for example there may not be any visible harm—it was still wrong because God commanded it so. Additionally, I felt a deep spiritual conviction apart from Scripture that guided me in my decision making.
Over several years, I also began to explore body theology, psychology and biology. This affected my understanding of sexual orientation, but did not ultimately cause me to change my moral stance. For example, I believe sexual orientation may have biological predispositions, but my theological beliefs on the “sin nature” would cause me to reject homosexuality even if same-sex attractions are genetic.
There are many different components that go into how we arrive at our conclusions. Many of them I mentioned above. So for example:
- Experience
- Scripture/theology
- Biology (including body theology)
- Psychology
- Peer influence
- Anthropology
- Church tradition
- Spiritual conviction
- Prayer
- Results (change in sexual orientation or no change)
I am interested in hearing your story. By that, I do not mean I want to hear people’s arguments for what they believe—for example a discourse on biblical exegesis. Rather, I am very interested in hearing people’s personal narratives of how they arrived where they are now (or are perhaps still journeying). When you look at this list above, or other factors that have influenced you—what has carried the most weight and why? How did you land where you are today? Regardless of your particular position on the issue (affirming or not), what was your spiritual journey through faith and sexuality?
Please note: At this time I do not want to host any kind of debate. This is just a post for sharing personal stories and understanding each other’s process. If you have not experienced same-sex attractions, you are still welcome to share how you have processed your beliefs on this issue.
Feel free to ask clarifying questions or make respectful observations, but do not challenge someone else’s position.
42 Comments
June 16, 2009 at 5:04 am
karen – i think this is a helpful post and i appreciate the focus (which people will hopefully stick to) …. i’ll be interested in hearing people’s responses.
June 16, 2009 at 1:06 pm
What helped me arrive to a fuller — much fuller understanding of homosexuality — is the reality of having been born intersexed. Something that a lot of people don’t even want to acknowledge: I have heard such enlightening (tongue in cheek) theologies as: look between your legs, it will tell you what you are to: every chromosome in your body is either XX or XY. Not. For everyone. If that is not “Body Theology”, I don’t know what is.
Now, I respect, Karen, that you want to keep this experiencially focused (and not debate), but could you please tell us where this term of “Body Theology” has evolved? Surely it is not by name in the Bible, so I can only imagine that some modern day person invented the term.
I have asked repeatedly that the Church deal with intersexed individuals — to no avail. I do not know why this is: perhaps it too uncomfortably complicates and blurs the issue: I remember the day when transsexuals were not welcome in the gay community (except for the occasional drag show). I have also wondered why the church does not deal with transgenderism (i.e. is it sin or not): perhaps that is really too difficult to process with Scripture — as in largely, very largely unaddressed.
My question for myself has been *what* is homosexuality when not everyone is born binary (male or female)? Lest you think this is a rare occurence: it is not.
This is what led me to my conclusion: this is an issue that people must address prayerfully, individually. When I read the one verse in Romans 1 in isolation, it does not give a full picture. When I read in context, I know that there are so many — yes, including myself, who did not purposefully rebel against God who still could be called “homosexual” with “homosexual” desires.
And just to think: in another era, leaving a baby to die is an option for non binaries: for me, it was “medical intervention”.
A slightly “different” perspective, but one that I think would help shed a tremendous amount of light –if people would listen.
June 16, 2009 at 9:49 pm
For me, Scripture trumped experience. I was in my early 40’s when the Lord drew me to Himself, but like your friend, I thought God had created me this way and therefore, it would be acceptable to continue “in the life.” But my study of Scripture led me to the conclusion that God intended sexual intimacy to be experienced only in a marriage between a man and a woman. Which means the only options acceptable in God’s sight are marriage or celibate singlehood, and this is true regardless of one’s sexuality.
June 17, 2009 at 12:04 am
I’ll share a little bit of my journey.
As a young conservative Christian, I believed God’s position was fairly clear and certain. I was raised to believe that the Bible was the ‘Word of God’. And I believed the Bible condemned homosexuality as sinful. Therefore, as a Christian who desired to serve God and His will, I concluded that I could never act on my same-sex attractions and should confess my same-sex temptations.
When I reluctantly admitted to myself that my same-sex attractions were not not going away and were definitely my dominant sexual orientation, I chose to confess my same-sex attractions to a conservative Christian group. Eventually, I joined an ex-gay group to learn more about my sexuality and for support. While it was helpful being with other Christians struggling with same-sex attractions, I began to have doubts about the theology and psychology promoted by ex-gay leaders. While I never desired to turn straight, I did expect that my SSA would somehow diminish and I would strengthen my faith. However, toward the end of my ex-gay experience, it seemed my entire spiritual life was consumed with my SSA. Eventually, I became disillusioned with the ex-gay experience and began to question the conservative Christian doctrines it is rooted in. At my lowest point, I concluded that God must have a better plan for more life than the neverending ’struggle’.
So, I would say my personal experience, what I witnessed in others’ lives, and my own theological research eventually led me to re-consider many of the conservative Christian beliefs I was raised into. I’m now more open about my doubts, but also more confidant in what I do believe.
June 17, 2009 at 4:34 am
For me, too, Scripture and Tradition trump experience.
I’ve always considered myself close to God. I’ve prayed every day since I was a young child, even though my family, though believers, did not attend church frequently.
I came to realize my homosexuality at the age of 23 after a bout of what was initially mysterious depression. (I have always been prone to melancholy.)
I was always orthodox (also Orthodox!) in my beliefs, so I easily came to the classical orthodox Christian understanding of homosexuality.
I think the teaching is hard, but nowhere close to “Leave everything and follow me”!
I also think that the mentality (or interpretative models or whatever paradigm you want to consider) that moves experience over Scripture and Tradition on the question of sexuality ought to, logically, lead to agnosticism. The same modern or post-modern principles that cast doubt on orthodox sexuality cast doubt on basics such as the resurrection, which given a modern perspective is much more incredible that the orthodox sexual anthropology!
So I couldn’t be a believer if I didn’t believe in orthodox sexuality. This has always been pretty clear to me. And, for what it’s worth, what I see around me shows this. The children of liberal Christians are no longer Christian, having been unburdened from the sentimentality of their parents.
That’s my narrative in brief!
June 17, 2009 at 8:06 am
God always has our best interests in mind. From my understanding of scripture when it comes to sexuality that it is reserved for a man and a woman in marriage so anything outside isn’t healthy. That being said lately I have become a little disillusioned with the whole thing. I mean I really want to follow God and do what is right but it isn’t easy saying no to any of these temptations especially as they hit closer and closer to home.
I think for myself if I was ever to fully embrace being gay and pursue it as a lifestyle I would leave the church. I don’t believe that God blesses these types of relationships. I do love God though and I have no intention of leaving no matter how far I stray. I know God loves me even though other Christians think otherwise. Sexuality is seemingly a big deal but in the long run it really isn’t there is so much more out there to do and experience.
June 17, 2009 at 8:24 am
Hi Everyone–thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. I hope more people will chime in too because its such an important and interesting question to consider.
It seems that many of us have multiple factors that influence us– though experience and Scripture seem to be coming up the most. For those of you who put more weight on the experiential, what was compelling about experience to have that be the lense for interpreting Scripture or decision-making rather than the other way around? How do you discern when feelings are a good compass and when they are not?
And for those who put more weight on Scripture, what is it about Scripture that should override experience? And how does experience fit into the picture with Scripture? Does experience matter?
For those of you who place more weight on experience, did you find other theological beliefs changing–as Saul mentioned? If so, why do you think that is? I’ve noticed that with various friends–though certainly not all of them–that often a change in theological beliefs on homosexuality leads to change in other theological beliefs around Christianity itself (or occur at the same time). I’ve always wondered why that is and would be curious to hear from any who can share their experience with that. For example, Norm, it sounds like that was the case for you?
AM– I agree that intersex issues are often misunderstood by most people. Its something that I would like to learn more about. I have found some of the material on the Intersex Society of North America to be helpful: http://www.isna.org/faq/not_eradicating_gender
As for theology of the body–that can encompass many different things–if you want to learn more about that you could do a google search. Lilian Calles Barger addresses aspects of the body, particularly in regards to women–not so much from a theological perspective but philosophical. I particularly enjoyed her book “Eve’s Revenge”– very pro-women and not “churchy” at all. Many of her readers are not Christians. http://www.amazon.com/Eves-Revenge-Women-Spirituality-Body/dp/1587430401
Sarah–I resonate with what you are saying. This touches on the issue of experience. The challenge of actually living out a particular ideal and how it affects us. Its one thing to say we believe a certain ethic, its another to embody that ethic in daily life.
That brings up another good point regarding suffering and blessings. Norm states, “At my lowest point, I concluded that God must have a better plan for more life than the never-ending ’struggle’.” Scripture says God wants to give us an abundant life and blessing. It also says we must lose our life to find it. And Jesus said, “In this life we will have trouble.” How do we sort out these two truths? One, that God desires good things for us and two, Scripture’s indication that the Christian life can bring suffering? How does a theology of suffering or blessing fit into decision-making for folk on this issue?
June 17, 2009 at 9:44 am
The only role personal experience played for me was convincing me that a homosexual *orientation* was not a sin. After all, looking at Romans 1 as a boy of 12, I could not figure out exactly what evil I had done at such a tender age for God to “give me over” to homosexuality!
Other than that I have never been convinced that gay relationships were blessed by God. From the age of 12 gay theology was a no-go for me–it was simply too unsure of itself (and in many ways alien to me with its use of “higher criticism”).
I consider myself to be leaning libertarian so many times I am tempted to just “give up” on the argument (though not necessarily for myself). After all if there were no biblical prohibition I wouldn’t care much about gay relationships.
Later on body theology came into play; but I think for most people gay and straight) body theology is very much underplayed.
June 17, 2009 at 9:45 am
I want to honour Karen’s desire that this thread not become a place of debate – so I offer these thoughts simply as observations. It might seem that a dichotomy between Scripture and experience is developing in this conversation. I would submit that this is both an unnecessary and perhaps unhelpful dichotomy. Anyone who invites Scripture to have an authoritative place in their life’s journey engages the story of the Bible experientially. Through our experience – either directly with the Word, or what we’ve been taught about how to engage the Word, or our own study of interpretation etc. – we make decisions about how to apply the authority of Scripture to our lives. Those who embrace an interpretative grid that invites a greater sense of mystery and paradox, may be no less committed to Scripture than the person who’s interpretive grid looks for timeless principles, boundaries and guidelines. The commitment level may be the same – even if the experience of Scripture is different.
June 17, 2009 at 9:55 am
That brings up another good point regarding suffering and blessings. Norm states, “At my lowest point, I concluded that God must have a better plan for more life than the never-ending ’struggle’.” Scripture says God wants to give us an abundant life and blessing. It also says we must lose our life to find it. And Jesus said, “In this life we will have trouble.” How do we sort out these two truths? One, that God desires good things for us and two, Scripture’s indication that the Christian life can bring suffering? How does a theology of suffering or blessing fit into decision-making for folk on this issue?
————————————–
I tend to look at it from a “Moses perspective”.
Did Moses reach The Promised Land?
That is how I view God’s promises for “abundant life”.
June 17, 2009 at 11:50 am
Wendy,
I think we were using the terms, or at least I was, as shorthand, and it was okay, seeing we were all on the same page. It can be useful shorthand: see the way it is used here
http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/article.php3?id_article=1957
There is a tension between experience and orthodox teaching and we all face it, perhaps least of which in the area of sexuality!! Modernity and Christianity have been in tension for a few centuries in abstract philosophy, but now we actually live modernity. We are living the tension.
For example, for me, when I was young, the first tensions had to do with all the sceptics around me, all the science, the debunking of miracles, etc. while miracle being the very basis of Christianity.
By the way, for me, commitment is not an issue. It’s not necessarily a virtue, either.
June 17, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Karen:
For me, having dealt with ssa for almost 37 years, I came to a realization during my college years that pursuing a gay relationship didn’t make physical sense to me. Anatomically.
I also could not rationalize keeping another man from pursuing his role as husband / father to a woman and their children, though I do realize (and did then) that not all men are called to be husbands / fathers. I certainly didn’t want to thwart their chances.
From that point forward, in my mind, pursuing a gay lifestyle was like trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
Lastly, a physical manifestation of my fantasies never made sense to me because they were so over the top.
I took the pragmatic approach.
Rob
June 17, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Trinidad–thanks for your comments. I agree body theology has not been examined much by either side. In fact, it is something I still need to do more in-depth study in.
As for Moses–it is true, some of our blessings are yet to come. All of creation groans longing for its redemption.
Saul–I agree there are often many tensions between our life experience and what the written Word calls us to.
Rob–thanks for sharing. You add another point to the list–pragmatism. Some people might look down at this as “not being true to self”–but the reality is that pragmatism can be a big player. I remember watching this one Israeli film where this man was in love with a divorced woman and it was not acceptable to his family for him to marry a divorced woman. They wanted him to have an arranged marriage–someone they had picked. The turmoil of the choice. Some might criticize him for not going with his “true love” so to speak. But, the reality is there were many relationships in his life that were important beyond his one lover. His family and culture were equally factors that he had to take into consideration in making decisions.
Wendy–thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would be interested in hearing more about your personal story in how you have wrestled with the issue. It is a different process for someone who is heterosexual and would be interesting to hear from that vantage point.
As for a dichotomy between experience and Scripture. That wasn’t what I was intending. As I mentioned in Pam’s story she valued both. And as I qualified, there are usually multiple factors. But, I have found for many people, including myself that there is a tendency to weigh some factors more than others. For me there is no question that Scripture weighed more. It had to. This particular tension is unique to those who experience SSA when trying to arrive at a theological belief on this issue–a tension heterosexuals do not have to contend with when deciding what to believe about this issue.
It is a very experiential process for those with SSA. We are experiencing something that feels so powerful, so compelling and so natural and yet Scripture says to deny it. I don’t know of anyone who has gone through this faith and sexuality struggle–whether they end up affirming or not–who has not wrestled with this tension between experience and Scripture. And while for some, both factors may end up having equal weight, in my own experience and in most of the people’s lives I have encountered, one more than the other, often does guide a person in a particular direction.
June 17, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Hi Karen,
“. . . I’ve noticed that with various friends–though certainly not all of them–that often a change in theological beliefs on homosexuality leads to change in other theological beliefs around Christianity itself (or occur at the same time). I’ve always wondered why that is and would be curious to hear from any who can share their experience with that. For example, Norm, it sounds like that was the case for you? . . .”
As a relatively young person then (age 19), my sexuality was the first major life challenge that conflicted with my conservative Christian beliefs (not that I was a perfect Christian without need of improvement). So, for me, dealing with my sexuality was the first time I tangibly applied all of those sermons, doctrines, and Biblical teachings I was raised with to a major, personal life challenge.
I initially promised myself that I would never compromise my conservative Christian beliefs in dealing with sexuality. However, I began to question whether there was any real possibility of completely repressing or ‘changing’ what seemed to be an inate aspect of myself. I found that the conservative Christian teachings that others’ found strength from didn’t seem ‘real’ to me. Ultimately, I realized that I needed to discover what truths I really believed in and what doctrines I took for granted.
Since my journey in dealing with sexuality started from an attempt to be a more authentic Christian, it did lead me back to question what being a Christian really means. I suspect that if I was straight, I probably could have maintained a comfortable conservative Christian identity for many more years (maybe even a lifetime) before applying my religious beliefs to a major life challenge.
“. . . How do we sort out these two truths? One, that God desires good things for us and two, Scripture’s indication that the Christian life can bring suffering? How does a theology of suffering or blessing fit into decision-making for folk on this issue? . . .”
Well, first I believe the Bible contain many conflicting and competing principles, so I’m not sure the authors intended these two truths to be reconciled.
That said, I think suffering needs to serve some recognizeable purpose. Daily struggling to repress my sexual orientation just didn’t seem to serve any purpose other than to comply with a questionable Biblical doctrine. Today, having a committed same-sex relationship as I do now, hasn’t led to any significant consequences. That’s just my personal thought though. Like the ‘does not cause harm’ creed you mentioned above, I know it could be extrapolated to an extreme.
June 17, 2009 at 7:54 pm
I’m not sure if my story will make sense or if many will resonate with it but I will do my best to explain. PLEASE understand that I am sharing strictly from my own personal experiences and these are my ultimate conclusions/convictions about homosexulity FOR ME. And as Karen has requested, not from a standpoint of it being right or wrong.
I was one of those who became aware of my same sex attraction at a very young age. I vividly remember having the biggest crush on an older girl at my elementary school as a kindergartner. I never told anyone nor had I heard my parents or anyone else say anything about homosexuality or the likes. But deep down, even at that age, I sensed this was not normal and therefore probably should not be shared with ANYONE!! My crushes on girls continued over the years and still do into my 40’s. I had only limited exposure to bible verses growing up and was raised ‘Catholic light’ up until my mother died and then no church until I hit highschool and became a born again believer. I was given the Good News bible to read and read the gospels first then began to read and study the rest of the books in the New Testament. And for me, with no one explaining ‘theology’ (I doubt I even knew what that word meant back then!) as a new believer reading those verses in Romans and elsewhere about homosexuality, it seemed like a no brainer to me and to be honest it still does – as much as I would like it to be otherwise. I believe for me, after reading in the bible what it said about homosexuality, it kind of helped me to understand why I felt the way I did about having that first crush back in elementary school.
Karen, I’m not sure how you would classify my first conclusion about homosexuality as a small child but I know my second conclusion was formed by scripture/theology. As I got older I would have to say that my third conclusion about homosexualiyt was church tradition and hearing that homosexuality was a sin and not normal- this did not necessarily change or add to my own personal convictions about it – but it definately kept (and still keeps me) ‘in the closet’ and not able to share with those I’m closest to – a huge area of difficulty in my life or explain why I choose to remain single and celibate at this age.
My fourth conclusion about homosexuality would have to be biology or body theology. No matter how hard I try, if I see two men or two women together, whether it be in a photo or out in the street as a couple, it just seems so unnatural to me (and I am a true blue SSA individual!!). Just the other day I was reading a particular female christian artist’s website who has been out and proud for a long time and looking at the photos of her and her partner just looked so strange and peculiar to me. Again I mean no offense to others who may have a partner of the same gender, I am just sharing my own feelings and reactions to homosexuality for me personally. Believe me, I would love nothing more than to be OK with all of this and to disregard my convictions and conscience because I long very much to experience all aspects of intimacy with that special someone- except I can’t seem to experience that with the gender that I believe it should be experienced with. But I’m with Sarah, I believe there is lots more to experience and to enjoy in this life than just romantic intimacy. So despite my choice to remain celibate, I feel for the most part I live a pretty abundant and full life. Thanks for letting me share and thanks to everyone for sharing your stories too!! : )
June 18, 2009 at 7:46 am
Talking about same-sex couples one of the other things that influenced me was that very little of what was “gay” (online, magazines etc.) looked like me.
I am black and from the Caribbean so OUT Magazine and The Advocate seemed so alien to me. I also felt that the North American concept of “gay” simply could not fit here (pride parades, pink, political activism etc.).
Also a lot of what was “gay” was hostile to Christianity and I considered Christianity to be a greater part of my identity than “gay”. So you can factor that into the “experience” side.
There was tension with the scripture, but I felt more comfortable there than “outside”. This still goes for most blacks (Caribbean, American, African).
Many people do not try to reconcile at all they jut try to make a space for themselves to get by as comfortably as possible.
And thus you will find that it is not uncommon for discussion forums on black gay “dating” sites for many people to hold the position that homosexual acts are forbidden by scripture…and still do it anyway!
(And believe you me they will defend the traditional position!)
In a sense they are not being defiant but “honest”. To them they can both believe that homosexuality is forbidden and still follow their urges since they feel that they have no obligation to be “consistent” with anyone else but themselves (in other words they are true to both sides at the same time).
The general idea is that it’ll “all work out someday in the future” or that they’ll bargain with God somehow on judgement day.
If you think about it it makes “sense”.
I guess what I am trying to say is that in conservative cultures when you talk about the tension between “who I am” and what the Bible says; “who I am” often includes certain traditional beliefs as well as an emphasis on family.
They then strip “gay” of its cultural force (since they cannot identify with it) and just reduce it to “something that I just have for some reason and that I have to deal with as best I can.”
June 18, 2009 at 9:18 am
For me it was His voice, through the personhood of the Holy Spirit. That was the only thing, as I was not in any spiritual setting or around God-worshipping/respecting people. His voice is still what actively draws me to Him. To know that it is His Voice and not another voice that is actively changing/drawing me, there is this section in the Word to read. James 3: 15-17, and I’m sure, yet not handy to me, plenty of other verses regarding the work of His speaking.
June 18, 2009 at 11:44 am
Norm–I appreciate hearing your perspective. I understand what you mean when you say that sexuality is what caused you to ask questions and probe deeper. That is what happened to me too. I sometimes tell people that my same-sex attractions are one of the best things that ever happened to me because it forced me to question everything and ask the hard questions. This journey has changed me in many good ways.
You write: “Daily struggling to repress my sexual orientation just didn’t seem to serve any purpose other than to comply with a questionable Biblical doctrine.”
Would you say that it was the repression of your sexual orientation or the repression of sexual expression? For example, I do not repress my sexual orientation. I no longer actively try to change it. I am not in denial about it. I am very out and open and accepting of this reality in my life. So I am no longer repressed about the fact of my sexual orientation. However, I choose not to express it behaviorally. I am just like any other chaste single person who may or may not end up getting married.
I agree that there isn’t a productive purpose in repressing sexual orientation. But, do you see that refraining from sexual activity can serve a legitimate purpose? Is being single inherently repressed?
In terms of suffering serving a purpose–I agree that there isn’t anything good about promoting senseless suffering. Though, I wonder what that means practically. I think of Paul’s statement–”I do what I don’t want to do.” That created tension–the weakness of what the flesh desired vs. what he knew God wanted of him. There was a suffering in that. Can there not be purpose in this tension? Making the body obedient to the Spirit. In terms of sexuality, can there be benefits of refraining from expressing behaviorally? (that reminds me of the post I wrote on chastity and our discussion there: http://pursuegod.wordpress.com/2007/09/30/the-c-word/ )
Amazing Grace–thanks for sharing. That is interesting that you felt something was not right about your crushes when you were very little. Perhaps your conscience? That is one thing I didn’t mention on the list. So, it sounds like for you it was conscience, Scripture, church tradition, and biology (gender complementarity).
And I agree with you and Sarah that there is much more to life than just this aspect of ourselves and this issue.
Trinidad–I so appreciate your insight. Your comment is really informative. Its so true that conceptualizations of “gay” can be very culturally driven. The conversation usually centers on a white American paradigm.
Its interesting how some can believe a certain view about homosexuality (traditional) and yet act contrary to those beliefs. To be honest, it amazes me that people can stay sane when doing that. That cognitive dissonance was much too hard for me to bear. Though, that is often the reality for many people (and was for me too)–that even when we want to do the right thing, we sometimes are not able. As Jesus said, “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” This is where the grace of God is the balm that keeps us pursuing Christ even when we are, as Sy Rogers says, not running a perfect race. But, at least we are running (or walking or crawling) and determined to finish the race.
Di5–It always amazes me how the Holy Spirit speaks to us. This was also very important for my journey too.
June 18, 2009 at 6:10 pm
I experienced God’s presence and saw evidence of Him in my life despite the fact that I was (and still am) in love with someone of the same gender since 2 years ago. This was even despite the initial shock, conflict, shame, then emotional detachment from God. Throughout that time, I sought various theological views on Scripture. I weighed all views equally but never held onto any as my own. I still do not subscribe to one way, though I very much respect and lean towards my pastor’s and mainstream Christian view that homosexuality is wrong. God will show me what to do and how on His own time, cause there’s no way to do this on my own willpower. Also, I won’t be swayed by anyone’s logic. When God speaks via Scripture or any other way, I’ll know. The most important thing is that I am now open to hearing from God (as painful as it might be in the future).
The experience v. Scripture debate really reminds me of an experience I had in college. After 2 years of being at a conservative Evangelical church, which I still love very much, the topic of spiritual gifts came up. They believed that there was no more gifts or speaking in tongues. The thing is, God gave me the gift of tongues. So either I was crazy or their view of Scripture was limiting.
June 18, 2009 at 9:37 pm
Hi Wendy,
Thanks for your response but to be honest I’m not sure I understand exactly what you are saying? If you could be so kind as to maybe explain what you said in more layman’s terms – I would really appreciate it. I did look up the word dichotomy and found one of it’s definitions as ‘division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups: a dichotomy between thought and action’.
Unless I’m misunderstanding what you are asking those of us who used Scripture as part of our experience in coming to our conclusions about homosexuality, it sounds as if you are asking us to divorce ourselves from the Scriptures in the area of homosexuality? Please know that I am not trying to initiate a debate about what the bible says about this issue but rather I just want clarification as to why using Scripture as part of experiences with homosexuality is in your words ‘unnecessary and unhelpful’? Thank you and I look forward to your response!
June 18, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Hi Karen,
“. . . Would you say that it was the repression of your sexual orientation or the repression of sexual expression? . . .”
I would have to say it was the daily failure to repress my sexual orientation that led me to question ex-gay theories and subsequently conservative Christian theology. Repressing sexual expression and behavior is relatively easy compared repressing feelings and attractions. I was willing to be celibate and understood that it was *technically* possible to continue having a homosexual orientation and live as a celibate conservative Christian. However, my impression back then was that being a gay celibate Christian was a bleak compromise and less than ideal.
Back then, the ex-gay teachings about homosexuality led me to believe that having a homosexual orientation was a sign of being a seriously flawed person. Each day I continued to have same-sex attraction meant that I was psychologically lacking and not progressing spiritually. So, I felt that I needed to either overcome or repress my sexual orientation in order to be a ’sexually whole’, truly masculine, and spiritually mature.
“. . . I agree that there isn’t a productive purpose in repressing sexual orientation. But, do you see that refraining from sexual activity can serve a legitimate purpose? Is being single inherently repressed? . . .”
I’m certainly not an advocate for free-for-all sexual promiscuity. Of course, there are numerous reasons to refrain my sexual activity not the least of which are health concerns and seeking meaningful/healthy relationships. And I do admire those who willingly and thoughtfully decide to be celibate. Singleness is not inherently repressed.
“. . . I think of Paul’s statement–”I do what I don’t want to do.” That created tension–the weakness of what the flesh desired vs. what he knew God wanted of him. There was a suffering in that. Can there not be purpose in this tension? Making the body obedient to the Spirit. In terms of sexuality, can there be benefits of refraining from expressing behaviorally? . . .”
That verse was my slogan for several years
The brilliance of Paul’s statement is that we still have no idea what Paul’s struggle was and so it’s tempting to apply it to our own struggle.
There are certainly benefits to sacrificing desires and temptations out of obedience. However, I think such sacrifices also need to make sense. I do believe God equipped our species with the ability to discern and intellience to learn and contemplate.
In my journey, many of the reasons cited against same-sex relationships just didn’t make sense to me. Further, the conservative Christian foundations of anti-gay theology eventually didn’t ring true to me either.
June 19, 2009 at 3:23 am
I’ve shared the main aspects of my story on other posts, so I’ll try to just stick to the questions at hand…
I just knew it was wrong. I mean – I just knew.
I mean, no, nothing felt unnatural when with the one I loved – emotionally or physically. The union and connection between us was great. And, even though we are not together anymore, the love for her continues.
But, it was just wrong. I knew. She knew. (we are both believers).
I wanted to find Scripture to support what I wanted, but it never lined up. Jesus never spoke against it. But, He never talked about it. He did, however, talk about marriage and wife and husband, man and woman. He did talk against sexual immorality. And homosexuality of any kind would have been seen as wrong in His day. So, if it was ok, you know, I think He would have clarified. Plus, honestly…I just went to the beginning. One man. One woman.
Sure there are other “debated” issues in Scripture – like women in leadership. Well, but here’s the thing…there are examples of it. Even if you don’t bother to do a closer study of what Paul was getting at, you still see examples of women leading. Well, you don’t see that with homosexuality. And, no, I don’t buy into the David/Jonathon thing. You have to create fiction to make it “real.” So, those were some of my Scriptural things.
God also spoke to me – that deep Spirit leading that we know is Him and will haunt us if we don’t follow.
My conscience bothered me. (Let me clarify this a bit. This was the first person I was ever “involved” with. Before, I pretty much just figured any extra-interest/friendship with another woman was just … I don’t know … some unhealthy emotional thing – not a same-sex attraction really (which could be the case). So, I didn’t have much to feel “guilty” about in terms of actual sin. It was more just the worry of what I was feeling.) But yeah, after crossing the line, conscience definitely weighed on me – much as I tried to push it away.
Then, someone talked about pragmatism. Something in the back of my mind still knew that even though this was great, it wasn’t, well, normal. I can take something and make it kind of work, but it’s still not as it was intended or to it’s best.
Finally, I also realized that I would lose so much if I continued in the relationshp. And, that just didn’t seem right. I mean, ok, friends or family can be upset about a man I could marry, but I mean, I knew that I would lose a lot of people if we stayed together. That didn’t add up either. I am not saying that I would lose people because they would judge me or cut me off. No. But, there would be a disconnect in a huge way because of me living this out.
The thing is, though, despite the Word and the experience and all of it, the struggle was and can still be at times — the pull to just ignore all of that. Human love and connection is powerful. And, you get angry because you “can’t” be with this person you love and who you know you could totally marry and be “happy” with the rest of your life. If you do let go and choose God, then you live with the reality of missing the person and wondering who you are and all this stuff. It sucks.
But you know what? This whole thing is a deal breaker. If I choose to act on things that I KNOW are not what God intended, then I am basically saying that no, I don’t believe in God. Not really – not fully. Certainly I don’t trust. And, certainly I do not revere and honor Him as being God, and, you know, me not being god.
So, I still don’t like it and can go 12 rounds with God on it all at times. It still hurts and affects me. Walking out grace and freedom is a journey. But you know, I KNOW my life is fuller living in following Him and His truth, then if I had stayed in the relationship and done my thing – justifying. I might have had some happiness, to be sure, but not the FULL life – the Kingdom life, that God promises.
Oh, plus, life isn’t all about “this” life. Even the full life God promises is not all about the experiences of “this” life. When I get that, then I am awakened to how much more there is – for all eternity! That then also becomes a motivator and driving factor to continue following and trusting and living in the hope that becomes fulfilled in the next life, AS I have faith in Him and His ways now.
June 19, 2009 at 6:07 am
Wow Julie, thanks! You have described so frankly and honestly the many,many reasons I have thus so far decided to not pursue a same sex relationship at my age. Your post could not have come at a better time (I noticed you wrote it in the wee hours of the morning) as I have been struggling with the Lord over this now for the past 3 months and I have often described it as going rounds with Him. And last night was a bad night for me emotionally and mentally in regards to this area of my life. I feel like your post, for me, was a breath of fresh air this morning and a timely reminder from the Lord as to why to stay the course even though it doesn’t always make sense. Blessings to you and thanks again Julie for sharing!! : )
June 19, 2009 at 9:07 am
Norm–I hear what you are saying about how you felt while in the ex-gay process–that somehow there was a lack of wholeness simply for having SSA whether or not you acted on it. I had to work through that too. Depending on the group, this is an aspect of ex-gay culture that concerns me. I should say evangelical ex-gay culture since the Catholic movement is much less focused on change in sexual orientation. When the focus is on change, there is always this sense of being incomplete and not whole. I am totally open to God doing whatever he wants with my life. If he wants to do something with my attractions he can. But, I no longer fixate on that, as if I am incomplete and not whole.I hope that there will be some changes in the ex-gay culture on this issue. The feeling of shame around continued SSA is damaging, especially when there may not be anything one can do about it.
B–I agree with you that all the logical arguments have their limitations. And I have no doubt God will continue to speak to you. Its amazing how God meets us where we are at. That is one of the things I marveled at looking back at my history. Despite all my mess, he never left. He walked with me through the whole thing.
In terms of logic in general–that was helpful to me to a point. But there were times when I would think about the biblical arguments and it all seemed abstract and pointless. I needed more than just Scripture. At those times I would look to see where I could see Light. Where was Jesus? I looked at the lives of others I saw who had walked this path before me, and I found some who were shining lights–people who I could plainly see were so passionate about God. The Spirit was so evident in them. So willing to put him first before all else. It was seeing Light in those who were ahead of me in this same journey that often kept me hanging on.
Julie–thank you for your wonderful comment. I think you have expressed so well what many of us have felt. At least I know I can really relate to what you are saying. You write:
“The thing is, though, despite the Word and the experience and all of it, the struggle was and can still be at times — the pull to just ignore all of that. Human love and connection is powerful.”
I think you really hit the nail on the head here. This is where the rubber meets the road. This is where it is so important to encourage each other day after day, and to remind each other of the Big Picture–as you just did in your comment. When I remember that my purpose and calling is– to be an ambassador for Christ to this world, when I remember that it is not just about eat, drink and be merry, when I remember how glad I will be when I see His face knowing that I fully lived my life for Him–that renews me and keeps me pressing on. Fills me with hope and even excitement for all that this life can be when fully surrendered to him.
Wendy–if you are still out there, I would still love to hear about your personal story on how you have processed this issue.
June 19, 2009 at 9:42 am
Back then, the ex-gay teachings about homosexuality led me to believe that having a homosexual orientation was a sign of being a seriously flawed person. Each day I continued to have same-sex attraction meant that I was psychologically lacking and not progressing spiritually. So, I felt that I needed to either overcome or repress my sexual orientation in order to be a ’sexually whole’, truly masculine, and spiritually mature.
——————————————-
Boy! You can say that again…
Those were some dark days in history of which Exodus has many.
This is one of the pitfalls of the idea of “brokenness” when not fully developed. Of course now they realize somewhat that the goal is holiness, not heterosexual feelings/lifestyle but much damage was done in the meantime.
Could this mean that some basic level of self-worth is vitally important to convey to people while we attempt to show them another way? (As opposed to an atmosphere that says: “You’re less than the rest of us.”)
June 19, 2009 at 11:14 am
Hi Karen,
“. . . I should say evangelical ex-gay culture since the Catholic movement is much less focused on change in sexual orientation.. . .”
I do appreciate that the Catholic’s approach to dealing with SSA seems more open to celibacy. However, I suspect identifying as homosexual still carries an undue burden. (Off-topic: Are not American Catholics even now trying to prohibit celibate homosexuals from entering the clergy?)
“. . . I hope that there will be some changes in the ex-gay culture on this issue. The feeling of shame around continued SSA is damaging, especially when there may not be anything one can do about it.”
I also hope the ex-gay movement changes their approach. I have been following New Direction ministry’s blog and appreciate their approach.
I certainly don’t think I was “shamed” in my ex-gay experience — at least not directly or intentionally. I believe most ex-gay leaders I encountered were sincere in their desire to be helpful. However, there are inherently self-defeating messages in believing one’s natural attractions are unnatural, not masculine/feminine, rooted in trauma/poor-parenting, and/or a sign of spiritual warfare.
I don’t see ex-gay ministries affirming the possibility that homosexuality is psychologically healthy and simply a natural variation. It seems ex-gay participants have to conclude that they are psychologically unhealthy with an unnatural dysfunction. For me, that conclusion was devasting and completely undermined my self confidence. At the lowest point of my disillusionment, I felt I had no other choice than to reject those messages about myself and re-assess what I believed was true about creation, the Creator, and myself.
June 19, 2009 at 3:25 pm
I don’t see ex-gay ministries affirming the possibility that homosexuality is psychologically healthy and simply a natural variation. It seems ex-gay participants have to conclude that they are psychologically unhealthy with an unnatural dysfunction. For me, that conclusion was devasting and completely undermined my self confidence. At the lowest point of my disillusionment, I felt I had no other choice than to reject those messages about myself and re-assess what I believed was true about creation, the Creator, and myself.
——————————————-
Interesting again.
I too am very put off by the tendency to look at SSA as some sort of particularly insidious mental disorder, or as you put it: “…psychologically unhealthy with an unnatural dysfunction.”
I tend to think that it is ‘natural” in the sense that it exists in nature. I don’t think it is part of God’s original plan much in the way that any birth defect is not part of His original plan.
But that is that.
SSA comes with a host of psychological issues, but to me it isn’t one in itself. But you’d have to not be wedded to a “distant father, smother mother” theory to come to that conclusion–which is not the case with Exodus which has thrown all its chips in with that theory it seems.
My take (after years and years) is that it is what it is and only God can change it and so I do the best I can by His grace to obey Him and forget about feeling like I’m particularly damaged goods just by virtue of its existence. I certainly do not have to believe that my sexual attractions are any more than what they appear to be: a “mysterious” inversion of that of straights.
June 19, 2009 at 4:11 pm
P.S. I guess I am trying to say that apart from the obvious challenge presented by homosexual actions being forbidden; I see no difference between “gay” and “straight” orientations on the face of things.
People with SSA are not necessarily psychologically broken by default in other words–they just happen to have other issues to face almost all the time; and usually related to fitting in with the world around them.
Also, the enemy almost always uses their predicament to send additional challenges their way that they often spend a lifetime unraveling.
To tie it back to the original topic, I think that for me. I was never not convinced of the Biblical position so I never felt the need to pathologize same-sex attractions.
I think many people are uncomfortable saying that a homosexual orientation is a morally neutral thing because they are not sufficiently grounded in what they believe or because they are afraid of the implication that their “perfect” straight world (picket fence, football, family dog, wife, children) is deeply, fundamentally flawed since the introduction of sin into the world.
That the effects of sin can be so casually an integral part of what they naturally want to think of as perfect is very unnerving to them. So any abberation; anything that is outside of God’s plan must be an actively deliberate, devious and unnatural phenomenon.
Or put even another way. The existence of homosexuality threatens the false but seductive notion that a secure middle class existence is equal to perfection. So it must bee seen as an artificial, outside intrusion on the existing “perfection”.
Of course any good reading of the Bible would show that the flaws of this world run to its very foundations and that what we accept as “normal” is far from God’s ideal and that soon enough He’ll be here to re-make it all over again the way it’s supposed to be.
June 19, 2009 at 5:07 pm
A. Friend alerted me to this discussion, and in particular to the mention of the Catholic take on the issue.
For starters, my own “how” is the teachings of the Church, referencing scripture and supported by philosophical ethics. In other words, at some point there was some religious teaching saying that homosexual conduct is sinful, with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah to prove the point. In college, the required course in ethics buttressed the teaching, with its point that we are to use our sexual faculty for the purpose for which it was created, namely procreation. Of late I have concluded, under the “pressure” of gay rights advocacy and scripture scholarship, that the Sodom and Gomorrah story is, at best a slender reed on which to base a doctrine of homosexual celibacy, and that even the Leviticus prohibitions could be taken as mere ritual law from which Jesus has freed us, were it not for the passages in St. Paul’s epistles which reaffirm them for believers. Beyond those, there is the teaching of Pope John Paul II called the Theology of the Body, in which he starts from Jesus’ reference, in the question about divorce, to how it was in the beginning. He then gives an analysis of the creation accounts in Genesis to show that sexual complementarity and the uniting of man and woman in a loving, life-giving embrace is part of what it means to be created in the image and likeness of God. There is not even an index reference to homosexuality in the 700+ page book, but the implication is clear both for contraception and homosexual conduct, that these things fail to live up to God’s loving plan for sexuality “from the beginning.” So as a practical matter, I’m where I’ve always been, but with changed underpinnings.
As for what the Catholic Church says, the basic idea is that same-sex attraction is, objectively speaking, a disorder. (I think in the light of John Paul’s teaching it is fair to consider it somehow a result of the Fall.) But it is in itself not a sin, any more than a physical or psychological disorder is a sin. It leads to temptation, which like all temptation must be resisted, and can be overcome with God’s grace. But those with a homosexual orientation are loved by God and should be loved by the Church as much as anybody else.
Because a homosexual orientation is regarded as a disorder, attempting to change it is recommended, but not required. And it is clearly acknowledged that even if the attempt to change is made, it may well be unsuccessful.
As for celibate homosexuals in the priesthood, it is not merely the American Catholic church, but Rome as well, which has concerns. When Rome first issued its rules a few years ago, it sounded as if celibate homosexuals were to be excluded from seminaries. But more recent statements (although somewhat obscure because they are written in Vaticanese) seem to be saying that as long as a person can be chaste and celibate, he can be admitted to a seminary and ultimately ordained as a priest. They speak, for example of one who may have engaged in homosexual activity in the past but has not done so for at least five years as being eligible to be considered as an applicant to a seminary.
Hope this clarifies things a little.
June 20, 2009 at 1:01 am
For me, personal experiences played a huge part in my decision making. I saw and felt how some of my decisions made a very real negative impact on my life and others, and concluded from that that homosexual relationships can’t be too good a thing. I also prayed and read the bible and just felt that God was telling me not to give in. In addition to that, I keep finding it hard to believe that God would design us to fit a certain biological order, and be okay with us abusing that. What I mean is that I don’t think two men (or two women) are designed for having sex with each other.
June 21, 2009 at 9:33 am
I came to learn that God did not bless homosexuality about 33 years ago when a believer pointed out Romans 1 in a group conversation. (Just a couple of years before I plunged into the gay scene.)
I don’t recall having any negative feelings before God in terms of guilt or condemnation, even though I had been experiencing sexual attractions to women for quite some time and had a great deal of shame regarding people finding out. I kept my struggle a secret, but welcomed what I was taught about homosexuality as valuable information about God’s Word; which was suddenly being opened up to me by some cool Christians I met and setting my heart on fire—I just wanted to soak it all up.
Spiritually, I’ve always tended to pick up on things easily and homosexuality was one of those topics I never had to question for a moment in my entire life nor needed to do in-depth research on—despite my own intense battle, and gay affirming theology. Like Julie, I “always knew.”
That might sound extremely naïve, but I’ve studied God’s Word over many years now and have never seen any exceptions to it in scripture or convincing evidence that it only applied in conjunction with other sins such as pederasty, or during Mosaic Law or earlier times.
I’ve been tempted, on a few occasions, to doubt that the God of the Bible really exists, but NEVER what His position on homosexuality is. And biology could never affirm Christian homosexuality for me—even if they could single out a factor such as a gene sequence—since ALL sin has physiological roots and stems from man’s drive for such things as self-preservation and love, however twisted that may be at times.
So for me it was never a question of whether I believed homosexuality was blessed or not, but rather if I would choose to obey scripture. And I really didn’t set out to do so, although it was what I “ultimately” wanted. I wish I could say that I have been motivated to obey the Bible in this area because I love God and Jesus so much, but that’s not the case.
I really do love them…but more honestly, my choices are because God taught me through His Word and I have personally experienced that His commandments always bless us so much and how sin, in contrast, is a liar, thief and destroyer. So it kind of behooves me to listen to Him.
My understanding of the effects of sin, from experience and what the scriptures reveal about spiritual warfare, provides a very different perspective than what some people believe love and “no harm” really mean. Sometimes the effects of sin are so subtle that they go unnoticed, or they do not surface for a very long time. (That is all a part of the deception.) Other times the toll is devastatingly obvious. In any case, it usually shows up when we least expect and in ways we can’t predict.
Taking that into consideration, the other major factor influencing my choice is again not so much about “loving God” (He will be fine whether I do or not), but how much I love (agapao) other people. I realize that to cause someone else to engage in sinful activity, or to in any way bring negative spiritual influences into their life, is never a “genuine” act or expression of love no matter what it looks or feels like.
So I have a lot of respect for the response of Rob, in that his concern for the other man played a significant role in his not pursuing homosexuality.
And when it comes to sin, not only should we consider the possible effects upon ourselves and the other person involved, but on third parties such as family, friends and coworkers. Sometimes, just witnessing an example of sin or hint of impropriety is enough to cause another to fall into a mindset that will eventually lead to very negative consequences for them. (Sin has a domino affect.)
I would say that, overall, love for others has been the primary motivation for leaving homosexuality. Even if I fell into an affair with someone I really cared about, love for other people—my partner or someone else in the sphere of influence, directly or indirectly—is the thing that would gnaw away at my conscience and not allow me to stay in the sexual relationship.
June 22, 2009 at 12:35 am
Grace – Actually, I experienced that as well – the concern for the other person. It is actually an area that still can bother me a lot – the guilt. Scripture is quite clear on not causing others to sin or leading people astray. Thank God for grace…and may I accept and live in it at all times!
Amazing Grace – I live on the other side of the world, so I actually was not up in the wee hours of the morning when writing my previous comment.
June 22, 2009 at 6:22 am
I think that society demands our individual churches to have a response or “conviction” to your question “God-blessed or not.”
My husband and I are church planters getting ready to plant a daughter church from within the church we currently attend. We are trying to figure out what it would mean to seek out those who have felt ostracized by the church, including those with ssa.
I have just finished Marin’s book (a bit late for the postings, sorry!). Marin proposes that we elevate conversations above the “God blessed or not” question, although I think this is way more difficult to do as a church body than it is in individual conversations. Churches are still very influenced by the binary nature of modern thought (as opposed to the plurality of the postmodern). No wonder, really, considering we are all also proposing an absolute Truth.
My main point here is: people expect us to have policies on things (e.g. Can ss couples be pictured together in photo directories? Can someone in an active ss relationship lead a small group?). I have a tremendous respect for what Marin does through his foundation and found his book helpful. I await a book/thoughts that deals more directly with what elevating the “God-blessed or not” conversation looks like within an church body rather than through a para-church foundation with individual conversations.
I am excited about how a critical consideration of this issue has changed the hearts of both my husband and I towards the gay community. I remain very aware of the sticky place this puts us in as future pastors.
June 22, 2009 at 8:26 am
Hey folks, thanks for all the participation and comments. I appreciate hearing your thoughts.
Naturegesetz and Norm–As for the Catholic church, I am wondering about the “ex-gay” movements within the Catholic and Protestant traditions. For example, how does the Catholic group Courage compare to Exodus affiliated groups? I could be totally wrong on this, but it was my impression that Courage does not promote developmental psychology or focus on change in sexual orientation. Their front page, instead of promoting change, says “From our website you will learn about homosexuality and chastity. By developing an interior life of chastity, which is the universal call to all Christians, one can move beyond the confines of the homosexual identity to a more complete one in Christ.”
Leslie–thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have talked with other pastors who are also wrestling through the kinds of questions you bring up–practical ministry decisions.
Marin challenges us to go beyond the blessed/not blessed question, but he is also addressing a particular audience and purpose. For those of us with SSA who are trying to figure out how to best live our lives for God, the blessed/not blessed question is absolutely pivotal. We are making huge decisions with our lives based on the answer to that question.
That’s why conversation is so important. Not all gay people are in the same place or of the same philosophy. What is it that each person needs from us in that moment of pastoral ministry? Encouragement to simply seek God and discover whether or not he exists? Encouragement to wrestle through beliefs about the morality of homosexuality and how that affects daily life? Or perhaps support to live out one’s convictions on the issue (e.g. potentially the challenge of a celibate life), etc, etc.
I would be curious to hear more from you, Leslie, as you guys process this issue as pastors and what you are learning as you go along as there are different questions and situations that come up in a church setting as opposed to a para-church organization–as you mentioned. Keep us posted!
Perhaps, I will create a post at some point that addresses this issue and we can all have a conversation about what ideas we have for how the church should best respond within the church body.
June 24, 2009 at 5:46 am
Quite simply, I truly began to struggle with the issues of faith and sexuality when I fell in love with another woman. I had no idea how to take that, though I knew that I’d been taught that God believed it was a sin. The truth is, though, that I know that I loved her and I know that this love is real, so I simply couldn’t hold a position that God saw this as a sin, and I stayed away from the church not because I didn’t believe in God and not because Christianity didn’t resonate with my soul, but because I wasn’t going to pretend that I truly believed that my love for this woman was wrong.
The idea that I could be both gay AND a Christian is a new idea to me, and it’s one I’m still exploring, feeling my way as it were. I’ve examined my position on same-sex relationships over the years, and sometimes the position that I hold now seems so alien to me that I begin to fear, once again, that I’m believing something that isn’t true, and that I’m going to be condemned to hell for this belief… I still struggle with the question you posed, too. I cried about it today. Whenever I force myself to face God, I end up crying and trembling in fear because I’m afraid of so many things I’ve done wrong. But I keep getting the same answer. Lamentations (my favorite book of the bible) ends with the people in exile, crying out to the Lord, asking Him to answer them, and they end on the note “Unless you are going to stay angry with us forever.” I feel like that’s where I am most of the time, but the point is, they still knew who to ask. they were at rock bottom, but they were still looking up, and they knew who to turn to when they cried out to God.
Hebrews 11:13-16 really speaks to me on this issue. The whole chapter talks about people in the Old Testament who lived their lives serving God and who died without receiving the promise. Then it says:
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
I guess, to me, I want to have the kind of faith that can ask and ask and believe even when I don’t hear the answers to my questions. I have to believe that God is bigger than my fear and doubt, and that His grace is sufficient for me when I am weak, which is everyday. So even if I’m wrong (which I don’t think I am…I believe, then disbelieve, then believe again) I can take heart that God can cover any mistakes I’ve made if I’ve truly tried to follow Him with all my heart.
June 24, 2009 at 8:48 am
Lillian, thanks so much for sharing your heart with us. Falling in love is such a powerful thing. I know many can relate to what you have shared, including me. The times when I have been in love have been the times I have asked the most questions.
June 24, 2009 at 11:45 am
Karen — You’re right about Courage, it seems to me. I’ve looked at some of the pages beyond the home page, and I gather they realize that not everybody who attempts therapy will be successful in achieving a change in orientation. So there will always be SSA men and women who need to be ministered to, who need to be supported in their desire to live according to God’s will for them.
Courage does not discourage people from seeking to remove their SSA, as I see it; but it does not insist on it either. And in this, it seems to me, it represents the official Catholic position, that SSA in an objective disorder, but not itself a sin.
Many people will never be attracted by the opposite sex. What is important for them is to learn to avoid giving in to their attraction to people of the same sex through sexual activity and to find fulfillment in relationships which are both loving and chaste.
And if Jesus does not heal our SSA in this life, then he will do so in the next one, where they neither give nor are given in marriage.
June 24, 2009 at 11:52 am
@ Lillian Patterson — How inspiring that you seek so diligently to know God’s will for you.
As your quote from Hebrews suggests, it may be that, in this life, we do not find satisfaction of our desires, or relief from those which would draw us away from God. But we continue, putting our faith in him and in his word — his word in scripture, and his Word made flesh, Jesus Christ, who saves us from our sins and heals our fallen human nature, either now or in the life to come.
July 2, 2009 at 7:02 pm
1st Corinthians 14:23-25 I want to praise the churches I walked in to where I saw passionate, committed followers of Christ(strangers to me). The speakers/preachers put a longing in me that I couldn’t get away from. Then in my own church it was the open passion that came from one couple that then lead to a mentoring relationship. Without these individuals expressing joy from following Christ even through difficulties, I wouldn’t have believed that there was a different life path for me, a chance to change, a hope that God hadn’t given up on me. Through these people, and the Spirit’s work on my heart, I wanted all of my sins forgiven and healing to come.
November 6, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Karen,
I just wanted to say that I love how you publish dialogue-posts like this. And the question here (“How do we arrive at our conclusions regarding homosexuality”) is *the key* question for same-sex sexual ethics, I think. And how these different strands of knowledge (anthropology, church tradition, scripture) and different epistemologies (peer influence, spiritual conviction, experience) influence / interact with each other makes it all the more complex.
Regarding Leslie’s questions (about church planting), it seems that *precisely because* the god-blessed/not-blessed question involves so many different strands of knowledge and different ways of knowing, people who disagree about the ethics of same-sex relationships ought to be able to acknowledge the hermeneutical complexity/ambiguity and worship alongside one another. An ideal church community, then, would create structures of support for those ssa Christians who want help leading a celibate life as well as gay Christians who want help remaining faithful to a married partner.
Bracketing off questions of feasibility, what do people think about this idea?
November 7, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Hi Miss Ogilvy– I think your comment and question is an important one. In fact, in the near future I want to put up a post on this very subject and will probably quote you since I think it deserves greater discussion and its something that I have been processing through in terms of how we do choose. So, stay tuned.
November 7, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Awesome! I can’t wait.