This post is part of a “book club” discussion series on Andrew Marin’s Love Is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation with the Gay Community. The format below includes snippets from the book, accompanied by various questions. Feel free to add your own questions and thoughts from these chapters as well. Chapter 7 is covered here
Any Christian who desires to reach out to the GLBT community is going to encounter it sooner than later: you want to talk about Jesus and the great blessings he offers, but instead, you find the conversation veering toward dreaded questions, “So, you think homosexuality is an abomination?” “Do you believe I am going to hell?” “What do you think about gay marriage?” Often these questions come with a defensive edge. I found myself stammering when one lesbian acquaintance asked me these very questions; it was clear she had no interest in my answers. She was testing me. She wanted to know if I was sitting in judgment of her.
The big debate on whether or not homosexuality is sin tends to set up adversarial dynamics that don’t lend themselves to helping someone discover God. What do we do? We don’t want to lie about our convictions or play “bait and switch” games. But, we also don’t want to get sucked into tired debates that distract from the heart of the gospel. We want to help people encounter Jesus in a real and meaningful way. Recently, commenter Nate wrote:
“I was talking with a new friend of mine tonight who is gay, and he said for the first time in his life, he’s exploring his spirituality and is looking for different perspectives and wants to talk with me. He asked if that’d be cool. Of course! But I’m nervous, because I don’t want to burn a bridge but I know he will inevitably ask me about myself and my church and gay marriage and those type of issues, and I don’t want to build walls with my responses. I want to choose my words carefully. Is there a good way, not to avoid the questions, but to answer them with grace and build a bridge? . . . How do you guys think I should respond to those questions?”
In chapter 7, Marin provides helpful suggestions on how to navigate these kinds of conversations. When discussing the Bible, including the passages on homosexuality, we must always remember the big picture. Too often the debate devolves into nitpicking over definitions of words like arsenokoite, and in the process we are blinded to the context and overall point that is being made by the biblical author. Marin goes through each of the passages on homosexuality and helps us to see the overarching principle being conveyed—one that applies to all people, gay or straight. For example, he reminds us of forgotten theological themes in the Sodom and Gomorrah story. He points to the character of Lot’s wife who looked back longingly at Sodom and in the process forsook the Kingdom. A major principle in this story, then, includes the message that all of us, regardless of sexual orientation, are being called to seek God above all else and leave behind our attachment to earthly things.
In regards to the Levitical prohibitions, Marin reminds us of the primary point of Levitical laws—to set ourselves apart for God and remember we are approaching a holy and awesome Being. Leviticus encourages us to “opt out of mainstream norms” and live counter-culturally. This principle applies to everyone, gay or straight. Focusing on the overarching principles keeps the conversation centered on the heart of the gospel. When someone comes to know who God is and what his/her relationship is to Him, then the Holy Spirit can begin to speak to that person about more specific areas that need to be addressed.
When Christians minister cross-culturally to other groups, such as Hindus in India, they do not typically stage protests outside of Hindu temples and wave signs that read “Idol Worship is an Abomination! Repent!” Such sentiment would hardly make sense to some poor, unsuspecting Hindu who passes by. So also, it makes little sense to fixate on homosexuality as sin when reaching out to the GLBT community. We need to live among the gay community and come to understand their culture so as to learn how to best convey Jesus. As Paul the Apostle said, “I become all things to all people that I might possibly save some.”
However, this does not mean that what the Bible says about homosexuality is unimportant. There is a time and place to really grapple with these passages. As any Christian with same-gender attraction knows from experience, we need to know what the Bible really says. We are making monumental, and often painful, life decisions regarding this issue, and it’s not enough to say “Well we don’t really know for sure what the Bible says.” One of the first things I did when I began wrestling with this issue in my life was pull out all the commentaries and concordances and study each passage on homosexuality. I wasn’t about to give up the love of my life over a misinterpretation. Make no mistake about it, people are making crucial life decisions on this issue based on their understanding of what Scripture says. Thus, biblical apologetics will always be important. However, there is a time and place for such exploration. And it needs to come from an individual’s own desire for answers—not some Bible thumper arrogantly trying to prove a point.
In summary, Marin maintains that we need to do more than apologetics. We need to elevate the conversation above the debate to see gay people as people first—people with a spiritual hunger searching for Christ like any straight person. Sexual orientation/behavior is entirely secondary to the question: Who is Jesus? And what does he mean to me?
So, what do you think about Marin’s suggestions for handling difficult questions? How do you feel about his emphasis on universal principles in the passages that are typically used to condemn homosexuality? What has been your experience with engaging in spiritual conversations with the GLBT community? How would you navigate difficult, “hot button” questions?
10 Comments
May 23, 2009 at 7:44 am
I found this chapter helpful to me. I like the idea that we need more than apologetics. People could construe that to mean that apologetics is not important, but that’s not how I read Marin. I don’t read him saying we need less than apologetics, but that something more is needed in our interpersonal relationships with friends and acquaintances who are sorting out these issues.
I also appreciated your point, Karen, about the importance of Scripture to Christians who are wrestling with this personally. It is not a theoretical matter, as it is to so many other observers. It is deeply personal, and they give Scripture and its proper interpretation a lot of weight in their decision making. At least I’ve seen this to be the case with the people I know well and who are genuinely trying to live faithfully before God.
In terms of responding in a relationship to more pointed questions that lead quickly to escalation (e.g., “What are you saying, that I’m going to hell?”), I do find Marin’s points helpful, as they provide ample ‘relational space’ to discuss really important matters that are relevant to all who read and apply Scripture to their lives. In some ways it levels the playing field to talk about how God is working in my life, or how I try to follow the principles that are being addressed in these various passages.
May 25, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Karen,
Perhaps this is because I wasn’t raised in a Fundamentalist home — but I find the idea of pulling out commentaries and concordances to make a life decision a bit odd. (Sorry)
For one thing, if *today* we wrestle with the reality of bias against gay people, how much more so the commentors, etc… who were also a product of their day? IOW how could a commentary necessarily provide any more insight as it was penned by the hand of man?
I have a friend who has come to an accepting place of himself as a gay man. (I believe this would include dating.) He has made the comment to me that some people have a relationship with a book rather than a Person. His words, not mine.
Again, because I was not raised Fundamentalist, I realize I don’t have an ingraining of this mindset, but his thought did give me pause.
Does the Bible = Jesus?
Probably for some, yes.
At any rate, personally, I do not know how I could trust a human interpretation just because at one point in history they published a concordance or commentary. Lots of books of all kinds get published.
Surely you don’t think commentaries or concordances are inerrant…?
Just musing.
May 25, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Mark–thanks for commenting. Yes, I like the idea of leveling the playing field and seeing how we all fit in the big picture instead of an “us vs. them.” Its so important for us to be willing to be vulnerable and talk about our own stories too.
AM–I respect the fact that not everyone views Scripture as one of the compasses for their life. But there are many people who do. This has nothing to do with fundamentalism. It has to do with believing that Scripture was, in a way we cannot understand, inspired by God. As for commentaries and concordances–these are merely helpful tools. Concordances, for example, allow a person to look up the actual Greek or Hebrew word for something. And that can be helpful to look at the original languages when seeking to interpret something.
Nate–Are you out there? This was the topic that you were wanting to discuss. I am curious as to your thoughts now that you have had a chance to read through the book. Did you find this chapter helpful? Where are you at with things?
May 26, 2009 at 1:02 am
Hi Karen and friends
Thanks for the loving and insightful discussions on the book. I have ordered two copies and am looking forward to reading it. For now, I enjoy reading your posts and comments.
I am an evangelical Christian who have fought my SSA in shame for two decades. Those who know about it have been incredibly gracious and accepting, but most would like to see me “healed” and eventually married.
I have recently decided to come out of the whole “ex-gay” framework and to look at my life afresh and see if there’s something more God could be telling me/the Church about homosexuality.
Karen, I appreciate how well you’ve put it – “We are making monumental, and often painful, life decisions regarding this issue, and it’s not enough to say “Well we don’t really know for sure what the Bible says.” Grappling with those Bible passages have been personally exasperating. Making a decision between continuing to seek orientation change and accepting my SSA (note: not necessarily choosing to act upon it) is no trivial matter. It is very painful, but it smells of liberation by the love and grace of God. I’m so comforted and relieved to find straight evangelical Christians who are willing to listen and to understand. It means a lot to people like me.
Thanks.
May 27, 2009 at 6:20 am
I don’t know about anyone else’s experiences, particularly around many christians, but I think we have a long way to go before even discussing the apologetics of homosexuality, at least in the circles I run. I go to a very white conservative evangelical church and I have been amazed by some of the things said by my friends during this past year in regards to this subject. One just last week in which the leader of my small group and I were having dinner at a restaraunt. Somehow we got on the topic of ‘Brokeback Mountain’ and he mentioned the 8 second sex scene (a guy friend of mine who struggles with SSA thought it interesting that this guy knew how long the scene was!) and his exact words to me were, ‘you know, the one scene that would make you and I want to throw up’. But what is most interesting is that if I were a betting woman, I believe this friend of mine who made this comment struggles with SSA based on what I have observed and things that he has said despite his recent marriage for the second time around. And a day or so ago, I made a recommendation to some girlfriends about where we should meet for dinner. And I’m not kidding, one of the girls said, ‘yea that is a good place but they have a lot of gay servers’. It was all I could do to not snip and say, ‘oh but I can’t stand going to places that only have straight servers’. And even last night during our dinner that same girl wanted to explain that when she first signed up for Facebook in error she indicated that she was interested ‘in women’ until she realized that function was for romantic interests so she hurriedly changed it. This girl is very straight and the comment I’m sure was innocent but I just shake my head and think how could I ever share my story with ‘these friends’ knowing the comments that they make about homosexuality. And yes I realize if I ever did many of these same people would bring up the apologetics but it feels like such an uphill impossible battle to even become that vulnerable with those I supposedly worship with so closely. I think before many christians even attempt to reach out to the GLBT community it needs to start within their own circles with those like myself who struggle with SSA and to bring to their awareness how their comments and attitudes can cause so much pain by making assumptions that those they are speaking to are straight.
Karen you mentioned that you are considering a post about how to ‘come out’ to your friends. I hope you are still considering this as I would love to hear feedback and how you eventually came about doing this yourself. Sometimes I feel ready to do this then I hear comments like I did this past week and I get really discourged and feel like it will never be possible. : (
May 27, 2009 at 8:07 am
Hi Doulos–thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m glad you are here. Everyone has different experiences, but in regards to myself, one of the best things I ever did was get off the change treadmill. It led to depression and demoralization when I found my attractions were not changing. In fact, it made me more willing to contemplate immersing myself in the gay community. Once, I decided to just live my life and accept things as they were, it was a big relief. The reality is that God can work in our lives if we simply focus on him. If he wants to bring about change at some point, he can. I don’t need to fixate on it. Also, I see SSA similar to disability–something that just is and not something to be ashamed of. Something, perhaps to adjust to that is not convenient, but not something I have to beat myself over. If God does something with it at some point, fine. If not, that is okay too. I am not going to carrying around shame etc. Its been really liberating to be “out” and not hide it and not be focusing my life on change. I have chosen not to act on it. But that doesn’t mean I have to live in shame or focus my life on that. Life is about many other wonderful things besides our sexuality. If you are open to it, I would be interested in how things go for you over time as you explore a new framework.
Amazing Grace–I am so sorry to hear about these careless comments you are hearing. I am glad you are posting that here though so that readers can learn from what you are saying and hopefully be more mindful of comments. I have found that people are careless with their words until someone who has SSA speaks up. That is why it is so important for us to be part of the solution. It shatters their stereotypes. And, yes, I will write that post on “coming out”–hopefully sometime in the next month. I know its hard to consider doing that when people say hurtful things, but in the end I do believe it is worth it.
PS– it does strike me as so odd that Christians would say things like not wanting to go to a restaurant because there are gay servers. That seems so far from biblical Christianity and how Jesus acted that its amazing the disconnect religious people can have from what they claim to believe and how they act. But, then that is what happened to the Pharisees–so preoccupied with holiness that they had no mercy and did everything they could to avoid “contaminating” themselves with sinners.
May 27, 2009 at 11:51 am
Amazing Grace’s post brings home a very interesting point(s):
Is the issue gay sex or is the issue being gay?
I say for many Christians and quite a few heterosexuals it is both.
How do your friends *know* that the waiters are gay? Is there really such a thing as gaydar? Is there some sense of deficient femininity or masculinity in gay people?
Personally, I believe that gay people can be spotted because I also believe that homosexuality is largely instrinsic. It has nothing to do with are they sexually active or have they ever been sexually active.
At my most attractive (read beautiful straight girl looking) times, people still would finger me. I remember walking through the hospital were I worked and hearing one security person saying to another in shock, “She is waay too pretty to be so perverse.” Hmph…and I wasn’t even sporting rainbow attire. lol
And as far as the two cowboys — had they been two beautiful, sexy cowgirls in the 6 or 8 second scene, you can betcha that the straight guys in the audience would have NOOO problems watching.
In summary, people are just weird in what frightens them or alarms them.
May 27, 2009 at 9:24 pm
Thanks Karen for the encouragement! Despite all of the recents comments that have been made by those around me at church I have made the difficult decision to move forward with sharing my testimony. My plan is to schedule a meeting first with our singles Sunday school leader who I believe to be trustworthy and a man of integrity. I would like for his superior, who is a woman on staff at our church, to be included in the meeting due to the intimate nature of this subject. She has been on staff for a long time and is a very strong woman that I also believe to be trustworthy. I plan to not only share my testimony with them but share with them the reasons why I have decided to do so. In turn I hope to find out where my church is at on this issue, not meaning if they condone homosexuality as I know they do not, but rather how they have handled this issue with other members and what opportunities may be possible to help bring more education to the church about SSA . I’m excited but scared to death all at the same time. I believe my passion to see change is becoming larger than my fear of rejection. So I would appreciate any and all prayers from those who currently read this blog and I would love to hear any feeback from those who have taken this step of faith and what your experience has been in doing so. Thanks to all who have posted their thoughts about the book, I really enjoy hearing everyone’s input and thanks again Karen for starting the discussion!!
May 28, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Amazing Grace–that is awesome! I applaud your courage. And I will definitely pray for you that good things come from your meeting with them. Let us know how it goes, okay?
AM--I am curious as to what you thought of Marin’s book. I think you mentioned you had read it?
May 28, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Karen,
Do you *really* want to know?
O.K., I’ll be my usual off the cuff self.
From the way he presents the Scriptures that have any mention to do with homosexuality — and the way he places them in context –meaning he gives a *broader* picture of the history of Corinth, etc…
I think that he views pederasty as to how homosexuality is sin. At first I did not believe this — that he might be that accomodating, BUT if you read the progression he makes with the verses, yes, I think he is probably not against adult, monogamous relationships, similar to a heterosexual marriage.
Now, of course he is not going to say that — getting so much Evangelical media time. And I really, in some sense, can’t say that I blame him. *At least* people are listening to a very straight dude who admits to being a one time homophobe.
For that we can all be grateful.