This post is part of a “book club” discussion series on Andrew Marin’s Love Is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation with the Gay Community. The format below includes snippets from the book, accompanied by various questions. Feel free to add your own questions and thoughts from these chapters as well. Chapters 3-6 are covered here.
1. In Chapter 3, Marin focuses on the reality and effects of stigma and shame. He quotes a suicide letter he received from a gay man with AIDS (who ended up not following through): “It is painful to think that people find it easy to shun us—some of us actually have good hearts that can be worth salvaging . . . This is the reason I don’t go to [religious] services—I can’t find a temple or church that is really eager to allow me to be honest with what I face on a daily basis. It has always been as though I was supposed to already be ‘fixed’ just because I showed up at services. Anyway I have reached a point of hopelessness because there really is no one with a true heart to help” (pp. 57-58).
Marin points out that as recently as 2002 there were still fourteen states with sodomy laws and in Idaho—this was unnerving to read—one could earn a lifetime prison sentence for having a homosexual relationship (this reminded me of the recent discussion on Uganda) (p. 55). While you don’t hear about lifetime prison sentences for something like adultery, it is poignant that until 2002 there was such a law in the U.S. for homosexuality. This reflects the depth of stigma many have toward homosexuality over and above other ethical concerns. Marin states, “Andy Crouch, author of the book Culture Making, says that Christians don’t change culture by critiquing culture. They change culture by making culture. When even the secular mainstream casts gay people as deviant and horrid, the Christian community is presented with an opportunity to change the culture by making a new one: offering hope and compassion to a people who have been burdened with a thick dose of stigma and shame in all aspects of their life” (p.53).
Have you felt the need to hide the real you from others because of stigma and shame? What has that hiding cost you? If you are straight, what ways have you contributed (even passively) to the culture of stigma and shame GLBT people experience? Are you ready for people to be real? Is your church ready? What tangible steps can your church take to become a place where a suicidal gay man with AIDS would feel safe and encouraged?
2. In chapter 4, Marin describes his efforts to understand the GLBT community, including pro-gay theology. He spent six months talking to every gay pastor he could find in Chicago. He writes, “ . . . for the first time I realized that the security in what I believed was not contingent upon other people having to agree with me.” In understanding what gay Christians believe, Marin felt better equipped to represent Jesus to the GLBT community.
Have you taken the time to study gay affirming theology and try to understand it from a gay Christian perspective? Do you automatically assume gay Christians are “wickedly distorting Scripture” rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt that they sincerely find these arguments intellectually compelling? How can becoming comfortable with disagreement help you to better minister to the GLBT community?
3. Chapter 5 begins to dabble in one of the biggest questions we all have. What do we do with the big debate on the question of homosexuality as sin? Marin discusses this in more detail in chapters 7-8, but he introduces it here. His premise? The Bible has a become a defensive tool rather than a literary tool. When the first questions are “Is homosexuality sin?” or “Can gays change?” the focus shifts to fighting over various views, rather than on how one can have a relationship with God.
This is not to say that those questions are unimportant or that we should never talk about them. Rather, in order to elevate the conversation to one that is more likely to help gays and lesbians find God we must ask different and open-ended questions first—ones that focus on our relationship to God. Marin writes, “Christians look at a gay or lesbian person and see potential behavioral change instead of a person longing to know the same Christ we seek. If we could only release control of what might happen down the road in a GLBT person’s life when Jesus enters, I promise God loves his children enough to always tell each of them what he feels is best for their life.”
Marin suggests that we not focus on the debate regarding the Bible’s statements about same-sex behavior or engage in political battles over it, but rather we should focus our energy and discussions on how GLBT people can have “an intimate, real, conversational relationship with the Father”—because God is judge and we are not. Marin quotes Billy Graham saying, “It’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict, God’s job to judge, and my job to love.”
What do you think about this approach? Do you agree or disagree?
4. In chapter 6, Marin points out that the Christian approach to building bridges with gay people is “80-20” outreach. That is, maybe 20% of those who are gay are interested in ex-gay ministries and seek out churches. That leaves 80% in the GLBT community who are unreached. We think we are building bridges because some gay people take the initiative to come to us to leave homosexuality. Many churches are not proactive in finding the 20%, let alone the 80% who do not come into our churches.
What can churches do to begin reaching out to the 80% who are not interested in or seeking ex-gay ministries?
5. Marin says something that will likely sound controversial to conservative readers. At the end of page 110, he writes, “Lives change with Jesus, and if a GLBT person says that God has indicated that it’s okay to be gay, the Christian community has to deeply trust and rely on the knowledge that we can never know the end to God’s best journey for someone else’s life.” Is Marin being relativistic/pluralistic? That is, “Its sin for you, but not for me?” I am not sure that is what he intends to say (though I would welcome his clarification). He goes on to explain his point in a story of a man named Rob. After much prayer, Rob felt God saying it was okay for him to be in same-sex relationships. And for the next six years, he happily reconciled his Christianity with homosexuality. However, after six years, he began to feel disillusioned and after more prayer, heard God say to him, ‘its time for you to come back to me.’ Rob told Marin, ‘God knew I would never have been able to move forward in his will unless I experienced everything for myself because I would have never been fully committed to him wondering, ‘what if?’” (p. 112).
This is an intriguing concept. What do you think about the idea that God may allow some to be in same-sex relationships, not because he is blessing it per se, but because he wants to reveal something to that person through the process?
21 Comments
May 14, 2009 at 6:48 pm
There is a lot here to respond to. I’ll limit this comment to an aspect of #3. I find Marin’s approach to ministry and outreach refreshing. I hope it will really resonate with many Christians who are looking for new and fresh ways to relate to those they know in the gay community. At the same time, I don’t know how it translates to different settings and issues. For example, I think some Christians could follow the lead of giving a good friend or acquaintance space as that friend sorts out how to navigate their sexual and religious identities and the potential conflicts they experience. They could really give that process over to the Holy Spirit and focus more on their relationship and on loving that specific person rather than making their point or convincing that person of their perspective. But it isn’t clear how best to respond to other people – I’m thinking of the challenges in knowing how best to relate to those who are actively attempting to change church policy or doctrine regarding sexuality and sexual behavior. Some Christians feel that the politics are brought to them (rather than them focusing on the policy or leading with policy over relationship). (I am thinking here about church policy rather than societal politics.) But it is hard to deal with both church policy and relationships, and it would be interesting to extend this focus on relationships to some of the challenging questions that are raised around policy, particularly in the church context. I am not bringing this up to take away from what Marin is saying about relationships, because I genuinely appreciate his focus and his heart. There are points he makes that at least for me raise an additional set of questions.
May 14, 2009 at 7:43 pm
“I promise God loves his children enough to always tell each of them what he feels is best for their life.”
When I read that I grabbed my old highlighter and marked it down because it’s so incredibly simple that we as Christians tend to overlook it. We want behaviour changes right now and we forget that the big part about reaching people is coming along side and being their friends first.
About #5 I think it’s all about letting go of what we think and trusting the holy spirit. The parable about the prodigal son popped into my head when I read the story about the guy that felt God said it was ok for him to be in gay relationships. In the parable the father gave the son what he wanted and let him go. The father could just as easily not given the son his inheritance and let him go but instead he did. I then thought of the story about the lukewarm Christians and how they are spewed out of His mouth. It’s better to be hot or cold than lukewarm.
For me personally I have always wrestled with the fact that I have never actually been in a gay relationship (I’ve never been in a real relationship period, because I’m gay) So I always felt that I should at least try it out but the farther I go down that road and the more I see the more I know I don’t need to be in a gay relationship but God let me be in places I really shouldn’t have been without much conviction just so I would know that in the end I belong with Him. I know that doesn’t compare with six years of reconciling your faith with your sexuality like that.
Reaching the 80% eh… my church would be perfect for a starting point in my city to do it. Man, I can see it now. We’d equip ourselves with info from stuff like this book. We already are extremely loving and accepting. I could probably go and stand on stage and tell them about my ssa and no one would bat an eye. Then we could go out and love people. hmmm…..
May 15, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Hi Mark, you raise some important points. I do see church governance as being different. Marin’s book is a manual for “the unchurched” so to speak or those who have often left the church. Whereas church politics is a separate ball of wax. This topic deserves its own discussion because there are so many different elements involved. For example, doing church gets confusing when it is approached from a seeker sensitive model. Some pastors are using their pulpits as evangelists, seeking to draw in the unchurched, and at the same time trying to shepherd the churched folk. Even though they are two different audiences. This is where things get a little tricky.
For example, Marin was recently asked to provide his opinion over at Jesus Creed on an actual church situation. There was a man on the worship team who admitted to being gay and currently dating another man. He realized the church did not support same-sex relationships, however, he asked that he be allowed to stay on the worship team as long as he and his boyfriend did not have sex. If he crossed that line, he would step down. Marin’s suggestion was to allow him to stay on the worship team (you can read his response here: http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2009/04/andrew-marin-responds.html).
In this situation, I felt Marin was superimposing his expertise with reaching the unchurched on a very different kind of situation, which is dealing with church governance and what we expect from church leadership. I don’t believe the two can be handled the same way. They are apples and oranges. Of course, this all gets into what do we expect in terms of standards for leaders in the church? In regards to the above scenario, what if it was a pastor or worship leader who wanted to date an unbeliever? We do not believe people should be unequally yoked in marriage. Yes, he wouldn’t actually be married to the individual (yet) whom he is dating, but what does that say in regards to this person’s level of spiritual wisdom and insight? Do we expect our leaders to have a certain level of wisdom and maturity and adherence to, not just what can I get away with while not literally breaking the rule, but also the spirit and intent behind the values themselves?
All that to say, I do believe that churches should have standards and not be afraid to have them. Hindus make no apologies for not hiring Christians to be leaders in their temples, Muslims make no apologies for their code of worship in which men and women often sit in different places, and so also churches don’t need to apologize if we have certain standards for our leaders or parameters for worship, etc. The key is that we promote those standards not as harsh legalistic rules with no real purpose, but that we have standards because they are for the good of the community. We believe that following God’s ways is what brings well-being to people.
The problem I see right now is that some pastors are going too far the other way to not even want to acknowledge their beliefs for fear of scaring away the seekers in their congregation. Or, those who do speak out are harsh legalists who have no love for gay people at all. There are precious few people who are gently, but clearly, standing by their views while also proactively reaching out to those with same-gender attraction. I do think that GLBT people appreciate it when we are simply honest about what we believe. I was talking with a leader in the gay community where I live about this subject and she found it disturbing that some churches were not clear regarding their stance because it left a gay person not knowing what to expect. It creates a certain level of safety to simply know where the other person is at and what to expect.
Apologetics are very important when it comes to doctrinal issues. But most of the apologetics I have found on the subject of homosexuality are either gay affirming or religious Right venting. I would like to see more apologetics along the line of Veritas Forum. And apologetics not for Christians to learn how to fight and debate gay people, but apologetics that speak directly to the gay community. In order to do such apologetics that requires knowing GLBT culture intimately to be able to speak their language and respect them where they are at. I don’t know of any books like that currently. They don’t exist. Though I hope to help bridge that gap at some point.
I don’t know if I have really addressed your thoughts, but that’s my long ramble. Marin’s book is an A+ manual for outreach. But, the manual on dealing with this issue in regards to church governance/politics/doctrine and how best to address it hasn’t been written yet as far as I know.
Sarah–You share some great thoughts too. I love your last paragraph musing on the possibilities of what it would look like for your church to act on the principles in Marin’s book. Have you thought about approaching the leadership about it? Maybe giving them a copy of Marin’s book and talking about how your church might start doing some of this? I say go for it girl! Make it happen there.
I also appreciated your thoughts on the prodigal son. Yes, its interesting how the father let the son go–and really–learn from his own mistakes. He didn’t try to control him or even withhold the inheritance that he probably knew he would use to squander on all kinds of vices.
As for your thoughts on not having been in a relationship–I think you are very wise. That shows a maturity. Even though we can learn from our mistakes, there is a lot of heartache that goes with it that is better to be spared from.
On another note, I just noticed that Scot McKnight at Jesus Creed has also started a book discussion on Marin’s book: http://blog.beliefnet.com/jesuscreed/2009/05/the-power-of-with-5.html
May 15, 2009 at 6:31 pm
All love has to be given with the Truth, it sounds like Marin is trying to reinterpret the Bible. It’s not judging if I come aside someone and make them aware of their sin. In love, you have to present the whole truth not half of it. God is Holy and He never changes. God doesn’t tell anyone that it is ok to sin. Nor is He going to be involved with sin. God never puts us in sin, we put ourselves there, but God does reveal our sins to us and will then teach us to come out of it. He can use sin to reveal His glory. His people are commanded to be Holy and set apart for Him. That’s my answer for Question 3 and 5. On Chapters 1&2 re. question 4, christians apologizing-I don’t think so! The church is people, all kinds, including me, and His church should all be growing, maturing to be like Christ. But they’re still people. I prefer actions, not lip service. And I have had to do my share of apologizing to christians when my actions were wrong. Only some are going to be called to this particular ministry, not the whole church. Is Marin trying to reinforce negative attitudes about the churches at large? reads like it.
May 15, 2009 at 7:57 pm
“Have you felt the need to hide the real you from others because of stigma and shame? What has that hiding cost you?”
I would say that the majority of us who experience SSA certainly do especially within the church body. It was actually parachurch ministries where I finally found that I could be open about my struggle. But the downside to many of those is that they come from the angle of trying to fix you by either going back to a root memory (theophostic prayer) and seeing where Jesus was when the abuse happened, hence explaining why you have SSA, etc. or by making peace with your same sex parent which you somehow disengaged with as a youngster. As many of us have discovered, it’s not always that simple and we often go back to square 1 which is at least what I did. For me that meant to go back into hiding and pretending that I did not have SSA so I could join back up with the church. So I suffer in silence and the subject of homosexuality rarely ever comes up and if it does it’s in a negative context or it’s assumed that we are all heterosexual. I don’t believe any real progress will be made, that is as far as the church is concerned, until there is more serious discussions and education about SSA to those within the church. As Karen mentioned in one of her comments from her previous post- the youth pastor who thought he would present a little refresher on homosexuality every 3-4 years, unbelievable!! I really don’t think the church is intentionally ignoring the issue, I just honestly believe they don’t think it’s that prevelant because so many are silent about it, it’s like this vicious cycle and I don’t know what can be done about it in a realistic way right now? I would love to hear feedback if anyone knows of a church that is actively doing this or taking it seriously? Sarah it sounds like your church would be open to that but I’m curious if they talk about this issue and if so do you feel they are making an attempt to educate their members about SSA? I suppose a good place to start after going off on my rant is to email the Marin Foundation to find out what it costs to have them come to a church to do a workshop. Just as Karen mentioned that her passion is to reach the youth who struggle with SSA, my passion is to help educate the church about how to best love and walk alongside those who experience SSA within their own walls which I believe will in turn empower us to more effectively reach out to the GLBT community with more grace and unconditional love
May 15, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Hi Di,
Thanks for your comments! : ) I just read your post and before I go any further with my response to your comments, I would like to know, if you don’t mind sharing, if you experience SSA?
May 15, 2009 at 8:21 pm
I am totally going to start this as a bible/book study. Change within the church needs to start at a grassroots level. We all need to step up and be counted as people who struggle with SSA that way younger people who are just realizing will have someone to talk to. It might have it’s painful moments but it will be worth it in the end. (I had this woman tear a strip up and down me today regarding my sexuality at work and it sucks but if we stop we are going to let it happen again to people who can’t handle the verbal abuse.) Anyways I am part of the main core of the church so to speak. And my pastor is amazing and the other leaders for the most part know about my ssa so it shouldn’t be a problem educating them. We are small (about sixty people) but we are growing and we have this partnership with churches in Kansas (with thousands of people) this could be on the verge of exploding! The only thing is when I looked this book wasn’t available here yet.
Amazing Grace it sounds like we share a common passion to reach out to straight Christians and educate them on this issue and that’s awesome!
Woo!
May 15, 2009 at 11:33 pm
yes we do and I’m so glad you are going to make a bold step and go in that direction. I am getting closer & closer to stepping out in faith so we will have to keep one another posted on how it’s going! : ) I am actually from KS, what churches in KS does your church partner with if I may ask?
May 18, 2009 at 6:50 am
I live out of the U.S. and am not able to get the book. But I’ll address # 5 from personal experience.
I shared on another post about my experiences. I was in a same sex relationship for a time. The main reason – only reason, really – that we both ended it is because of conviction by God that it wasn’t His best. That being said, I very much believe that God “let” both of us follow our own path throughout the whole thing. It’s almost like He removed His hand of protection.
God gave both of us, though especially me as a spiritual leader, lots of opportunities to turn away from the temptation. More than that, there were various “needs” I allowed my friend to meet, instead of God. Though God kept reminding me to let Him be my everything and trust, I didn’t.
And, in even that bit of “rebellion,” God did leave us to ourselves. That, of course, led to our own actions that were not of God.
After a couple months, the conviction was just too much. And though I wanted SO BADLY to somehow, someway, justify this relationship as something God could allow, He kept letting me know deep in my spirit that it wasn’t.
I could stay in and still be “saved”, so to speak. But, no way was it God’s best. To remain in would be knowing what was right to do and not do it – sin.
Unfortunately, I had to learn from experience, and that is definitely the hard way.
Sarah – it is WAY better to avoid relationships. As Karen said, you only will bring yourself more heartache and consequence.
So, if someone says that God told them to be in the relationship, well, I don’t know. God didn’t tell me to do something sinful. He did, however, leave me to it.
It’s a mystery, to be sure. What of relationship with Jesus isn’t?
May 18, 2009 at 8:59 am
I just ordered this book and I am really looking forward to reading it. Then I can better understand all of your comments. It sounds like a great book.
May 19, 2009 at 3:04 pm
There are a few churches but the ones I know off hand are Emmanuel, Midway, Metropolitan and Garden Park in Silina (I’m not too sure on the spelling.) There are a few others too but like I said I don’t know off hand. Man wouldn’t it be cool if you went to one and we could get a joint effort going as far as awareness and outreach. I talked to my pastor about doing this as a bible study/book club and he’s all for it. He even said he’d e-mail some of those pastors to see what they thought.
May 20, 2009 at 3:33 am
“It is painful to think that people find it easy to shun us—some of us actually have good hearts that can be worth salvaging .”
Through reading Andy’s book and having two Christian friends who struggle with SSA recently decide to come out to their parents and friends, I have proceeded to engage myself with two other guys who profess to be gay Christians. I had not engaged directly with them before, but statements like the above have challenged me to look to them for wisdom in trying to support my two friends who are coming out. Both give me opportunity to still speak truth, but it is truth with grace and compassion, and without the threat of shunning them if they don’t change their decision. My heart breaks for the one guy whose parents won’t even speak to him until he “repents”. Same parents who went to a “Love Won Out” conference with him a year or so ago.
Thanks for all the comments. You are helping to build the kingdom.
May 20, 2009 at 8:49 am
Thanks for engaging in the discussion folks!
Di–I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts. I don’t think that Marin is trying to say there is no sin. Rather he is saying that the gospel or “good news” is not “You’re a sinner!” Which is the first thing that comes to people’s minds and mouths when they talk about gay people. The good news is: “God loves you and wants to have a relationship with you.” Scripture says that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin. But, if a person is not even a believer and does not have the Holy Spirit it does not make any sense to them to follow the Bible. And the message of the Bible is not “stop being gay”– the message of the Bible is God has entered our world to be close to us.” Transformation comes after we know God, not before. God first loved us. And its the knowledge that he loves us that we come to love him in return. When missionaries go to foreign countries to minister to people who engage in regular idol worship, the first thing they say is not “Stop being an idol worshipper!” Rather they minister cross-culturally and try to convey the gospel in a way that will spark an “ah ha!” moment. Jesus came to save, not to condemn. This does not mean that we avoid the truth about sin. But, it does mean we take care to talk about sin in a way that truly reflects the gospel.
As for not apologizing to the gay community–do you not think the church should apologize for some of the ways it has hurt gay people? Church leaders have used gay people to scapegoat them for everything including 9/11. I personally have heard Christians speak in very unChristlike ways about gay people. Do you not think the church should apologize for its lack of Christlikeness to the gay community and for failing to reach out to GLBT people? In your 30 years in lesbian relationships, did you not encounter any gay friends who had been hurt by the church?
Amazing Grace–I agree that the church doesn’t realize how many of their members are dealing with this issue either personally or have GLBT loved ones. And that is, in part, because of our silence. We have to be part of the change we want to see happen by “coming out of the closet.” I am hoping to post about that soon. I am curious too how many churches are already doing something like what Marin proposes. I would suspect not many.
Sarah–I am so excited to see your initiative on this! That is great that you talked to your pastor and that he is receptive. Definitely keep us posted on how that goes! You are serving as a catalyst and your courage to be open and encourage that kind of engagement WILL make a difference. May God empower you and your church as you explore this.
Julie–good to hear from you again. I wonder if you can order the book via Amazon? Seems like Amazon operates overseas too or could ship almost anywhere. Maybe you can have a good friend mail it to you. I’m curious how things are for GLBT people where you live.
I agree with you that sometimes God allows us to proceed with what we are going to do–that is, “He gives us over” to it because sometimes that is the only way we learn the iron is hot. He did that with the Israelites. He said, “Okay, you want to worship other gods, then I will allow you to experience what it is like to live under the oppression of other gods.” And of course the Israelites figured out in due time that YHWH was really the better choice. I love that He cares about us enough to convict us by his Spirit and to discipline us with love. He could just let us go completely, but he doesn’t. He is always seeking to restore us. And sometimes hitting bottom is the only way we figure it out. I saw how God never gave up on me even when I was actively trying to ignore him. He is so patient and kind.
Ewe–would be great to hear your thoughts.
Jeff--thanks for chiming in. You bring up a really challenging issue. How do we interact with those who are Christian and yet decide to actively live out something we consider sin? Especially on something as complex as sexual identity. Shunning doesn’t seem to work. Though some cultures (For example some Asian cultures) use this type of shaming to effect change and maintain ethics. I could make an ethnocentric judgement and say that is never right to do, but maybe in some cultures God uses that. Paul’s culture seemed to have used that to some extent. Its not the way I want to go about it though. Jesus seemed to engage with just about anyone–even those whom he strongly disagreed with. He ate dinner in the homes of both sinners and the Pharisees. He focused his energy on ministering to the sinners. But, he also spoke into the lives of the Pharisees whom he at one point called “sons of Satan.” It would be great to have a in-person group discussion on this very subject and how to navigate it. Especially when you have to consider that there are leaders in the church (at large) who are teaching something that would be considered harmful–the acceptance and affirmation of something God has called sin. We have to take lies and deception seriously, and not be naive about the effect of sin on a person’s life–because the whole point of the gospel is to rescue us from those things that harm. But the best way to do that–I’m still wrestling with too.
May 20, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Thanks Karen for your kind words and godly wisdom. I want to be very careful before I share again. As for the apologizing, I never met any one more hurt than myself, the p.k. Jesus is the Head over the Church. And the body as you know is a lot of *groups*. My church and my pastors have been a place/source of great blessing and healing. There is no one pastor that can apologize to me and no one pastor speaks for the body. True believers, I just thrive around, you feel refreshed by them, they tend to be humble. I would rather hold an individual that harms me to apologizing not a figure. No matter what my life was like, going into a church even during the late 70s’/early 80s’ years-AIDS, felt vaguely warm/familiar/etc. My life is about forgiving, loving honestly in relationships-hence why I have to apologize at times. Knowing who God really is and being taught that correctly by pastors/people has changed/changing me and is undoing all those false & perceived messages. Does that help you see my point any? I just think Marin saying that in his book is just continuing the wounding/the walls.
May 20, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Hi Di–thanks for sharing more. I do see what you are saying. The forgiveness and healing you have experienced has been in the context of real relationships.
Can you clarify a little more when you say that you feel Marin’s book is continuing wounds/walls? Do you mean that someone who has experienced a lot of wounding by the church might have those wounds reopened by hearing yet again about how the church is not doing its job? I know sometimes I can have that response when it comes to men’s treatment of women in the church. I have had deep wounds with that, and have forgiven and healed in many ways, but hearing about things men or certain denominations still do to treat women unfairly is not something I can listen to. It stirs up old memories I’d rather leave behind. I don’t know if that is the same concept you are trying to convey? Maybe you could clarify?
I do know that Marin’s primary audience is not the gay community, but the church. And so, perhaps, its not the best book to give to a gay person with a lot of wounds from the church, but I still think its an excellent book for church folk to learn new ways of communicating grace and love to the GLBT community. Some of the stories Marin shares about how he has been able to minister are so tender and I wish so much there were a thousand more like him reaching out in the way he has.
PS– it sounds like you did experience wounds from the church when you were living in lesbian relationships. But, that you have also found a good church that has loved you where you are at. It sounds like your church practices what Andrew is trying to say? That is, it was loving, caring Christians that helped you to see Jesus?
May 20, 2009 at 9:26 pm
Karen,
I do agree that probably the main reason the church is so unprepared to deal with SSA is because of our silence. I am not sure if I shared this in a past comment or not, but I did make an appointment with a pastor on staff at the last church I went to in order to share my experience with SSA. This is the church the Lord laid on my heart to go to where I had my eyes opened to the many many relational issues that go on behind ‘closed’ church doors. Anyway, this pastor, her title was ‘globalizaton pastor’ .The reason I went to see her is because I heard a testimony given by a lady (this ‘lady’ looked very much like a man) who attended the church and although she did not mention that her issue was ‘homosexuality’ it did not take rocket science to figure out that it most likely was. In her testimony she mentioned how God had drawn her inexplicably one afternoon to this church and the first person she met was this globalization pastor and how the Lord used her to minister to her and now this ‘lady’ is an active member of the church. Because I know how people often stereotype what a gay person looks like; very masuline woman or effeminate man, I really felt the Lord laid it on my heart to share with this lady pastor that I too experienced SSA despite looking like your typical ‘run of the mill’ female that you would probably not suspect any hint of homosexuality upon first meeting me or even after knowing me for awhile. In this meeting I shared with her my heart’s desire to help educate the church about SSA and I let her know that I would be willing to talk with any of the church staff if she felt it would be helpful to give a better understanding of SSA. To make a long story short, from then on, our once warm casual acquaintanceship pretty much went south after that. Interestingly enough I did not become angry with her like I thought I might, rather I felt I had done what the Lord had told me to do and that I was not responsible for how she chose to react to it. If anything I believe the Lord wanted to break any stereotypes of SSA that she may have previously held prior to that meeting. A praise in all of this is that I did end up sharing my story with the woman’s ministry leader on staff and she was awesome and she was open to me starting a support group for SSA. In my heart I did not believe that was my purpose for being there but rather God wanted to use that time to soften and heal my heart toward the church which he did. I guess what I am saying, and maybe that was what Di was referring to, is that often times, when one does share their SSA struggle with those at church, more often than not, they will most likely receive the reaction I did from the ‘globalization pastor’ versus the womens ministry leader’s reaction. I honestly don’t believe it’s because they don’t care or are heartless but rather I think they feel so ill equipped and have no idea what to say or how to help someone who does share about SSA. And this may come across negative and I apologize if it does as that is not my intent, but unfortunately I do not believe GLBT christian or non-christians are exactly the ‘target
market’ the evangelical church is looking for. Therefore that may explain why not much priority is placed in reaching out to them, does that make sense? I can understand Marin’s feelings at times of feeling overwhelmed by what God has called him to do as I think it is and will continue to be a very uphill battle for a long time. I do believe God is more powerful still and he accomplishes some of His greatest works with the fewest numbers of people. Therefore I have great hope in this area despite what I am currently seeing, or should I say, ‘not seeing’ within the church as far as SSA is concerned.
May 20, 2009 at 9:36 pm
Yes, your discernment is correct. I am with you that I and others don’t want to hear that stuff brought up. I’d rather see love lived out. Let’s accentuate the positive things out there in some churches. Apologizing would be offensive and why should a pastor apologize for another’s…… from the past. So I hope leaders disregard Marin’s suggestion. I think I should pray and try to be detached as I read this book. PS-The wounds occurred long before any relationships. Yes, my church especially my senior pastor practices love and truth on this subject which came up recently too. My mom and I tensed for a little bit but then were relaxed with his words. Check out the church at http://www.whoisgrace.com. I approached, coming out(love taking back that word) to a woman who wore blue jeans and a denim jacket over in Israel never viewing her here as the senior pastor’s wife. Otherwise upon serious thinking, I would never have opened up. She mentored me, her first:), growing me, learning herself. When we were ready I came out to the women’s class after we had completed the book, Changes That Heal by Henry Cloud. There were some that cried and all were loving/accepting to me. But I was ready had it been different. I have also received unconditional love by some of the men here. My surprise(breaking my bias) has been the love from the senior community. All of this has blessed my mother’s heart too. She says she came to this church years ago because of the transparency of the pastors, I stayed because of the hugs from K and unseen supernatural, heavenly forces.
May 21, 2009 at 7:35 am
Di–I hear what you are saying. And I affirm and validate your feelings. Its true that for some its best not to relive the past wounds. And for reconciliation we have to do more than air our grievances. We have to forgive and also acknowledge many of the good things that the Church does.
I do want to encourage you though, not to project your own needs as universal. While it is helpful for you to not be reminded of those faults in the church and while you would not find it meaningful to receive an apology from someone unless it is directly from the person who offended you—there are many others who would find immense healing from hearing a pastor apologize for the wounds a gay person has experienced. This is also very powerful when men in the church do this for women who have been hurt in the church. I think it can be a very powerful and much needed act. I strongly encourage pastors to heed Marin’s advice to consider an apology for the sake of those they are ministering to who need to hear that in order to move forward and heal.
May 21, 2009 at 8:39 am
Framed the way you are saying it, especially your last sentence, I would agree. Thanks for reminding me not to be close-minded to what others might need.
May 21, 2009 at 10:57 am
Respond away. Or better frame it for everyone in order to stay on point. This question, it seems prejudicial, I’d like to not respond too. Let’s just learn together.
June 30, 2009 at 8:36 am
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