Update: The video is now available again on vimeo. See Part I and Part II.
Update: The video is not available at this time. However, the audio can be heard here. The mp3 file is on the Skyline Church website under sermons, October 19, 2008.
I recently stumbled upon this video interview with Melissa Fryrear. Pastor Jim Garlow of Skyline Church in San Diego, California talked with Melissa for an hour in front of a live audience. It appears to have been taped sometime in October 2008. Melissa is the Director of the Gender Issues Department at Focus on the Family. She became involved in her first lesbian relationship at the age of sixteen, but decided to leave behind homosexual relationships ten years later. I have heard her testimony before, but in this interview she shares details not included in her standard presentation at Love Won Out conferences. Great story. You can watch it here.
42 Comments
December 29, 2008 at 11:52 am
I’ve always felt a little alienated by Focus On The Family. Growing up in a conservative Christian family my parents subscribed to the magazine and as I started to struggle I also started to notice these magazines on the coffee table about the ‘threat of homosexuality on the traditional marriage etc.’ things like that. I. didn’t feel that I was a threat so I felt like Focus on the Family had hurt me personally. So I have always brushed Focus on the Family aside but she is a little different.
She also talked a lot about change and how now she wears make-up and all that. But that’s not what being a woman is about. Because if that’s what it’s about I don’t want it but that doesn’t make me any less of a woman.
Nevertheless it is interesting to think about she does bring up a lot of things that make you think.
December 29, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Sarah–I can really relate to your feelings about Focus on the Family. I had a very similar experience. And, I have had to work through resentment related to that. There are still aspects of Focus that concern me. Though, I do see good pockets, as with Melissa Fryrear.
I agree that being a woman is not about make-up. And Melissa would be the first person to tell you that–though in her presentations she sometimes jokes about it. And, for her it was a small part of her process that was important for her. Every woman is different in that regard.
What I love about Melissa’s story is that God took a woman who was seriously wounded–abusing drugs, cutting herself, anger management issues and transformed her to the point that it is difficult to even imagine her having had those issues. She has such a heart of grace and love for God.
January 2, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Hi Karen,
I listened to the video you linked to in this post. I had heard Melissa speak at Janelle Hallman’s conference ‘Restoring the Glory’ several years ago and I found her very warm & engaging. I was really enjoying the interview up until the last 15 minutes when Melissa was asked by the host if she was dating. And to be honest it kinda went downhill for me after that. Although I think it’s wonderful that she has reached a point that she can now date someone of the opposite sex, what really bothers me about these kind of messages is that in reality this is not the norm for most people who experience same sex attractions. I often feel like organizations like Focus on the Family’s Love Won Out and Exodus are afraid to really admit this and by doing so they think they would have to admit failure which is simply not true. I was involved in various programs to help me work through my same sex attactions (Living Waters, individual & group therapy with a very well known therapist who specializes in female homosexuality, an exodus minstry group,theophostic prayer,etc.) and after 10 years I finally had to admit that ‘it’ wasn’t going away. I felt disillusioned and angry and it wasn’t until I started to find blogs such as yours, in which you dared to be honest that ‘yours’ hadn’t gone away either, that I finally felt I could come to peace with
this life long issue in my life and figure out how I was going to live my life from here on out. I knew that the answer was not to go to the other extreme and jump on the band wagon of ‘ex-ex gay’ but I also was no longer going to pretend that I no longer experienced SSA either.
I do however agree with you that Melissa has a heart of gold and I find her quite genuine. I often wonder, considering the position she is in, and who she works for, if she ever feels pressured or expected to go in the direction of dating or getting married. It’s hard to say but I can’t help but wonder, especially considering the applause she received from the audience in response to the question about her dating life. It just doesn’t make for as good as a story to say, ‘no I’m not dating and I still experience same sex attractions but I’m trusting the Lord to sustain me and give me purpose despite my inability to get married or have a normal dating relationship with the opposite sex’.
January 3, 2009 at 9:43 am
Hi Amazing Grace,
I hear what you are saying. I agree that there is an over emphasis on change in the ex-gay movement. I think part of it stems from the culture war and the need to respond to the other side that says change is completely impossible. So the argument ends up in extremes by both sides–all or nothing. Rather than reflecting all the shades of gray in-between. I suspect its also a desire to instill hope and be optimistic. Though, that can backfire when it leads to disillusionment. I also had that disillusionment and it made me want to throw in the towel completely. We need to do a much better job of preparing people for the reality of no change in attraction–as you mention. And that life can be fulfilling as a single person. The Protestant church in general doesn’t do a very good job of affirming and celebrating single celibacy.
January 3, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Amazing Grace,
Staying off of this blog may well be much harder than dealing with same sex attractions. Cause I’m really trying, very hard to. My apologies to everyone who hates my views.
I really don’t know much about what these organizations are claiming is the “norm”…but from the little I have seen it does not appear they are claiming everyone is going to get past this to the same degree. I think there are a tremendous amount of genuine success stories and the organizations seem to well acknowledge the difficulty and hardships.
Melissa herself spent years and years of getting to the place she is at. And truth be told, anyone, including her, can fall back into a homosexual orientation or lifestyle at any time. Just as well as anybody can fall back into any stronghold, addiction, or sinful behavior at any time. The reason I believe that her story is completely genuine is because I have experienced similar change.
Trust me, I don’t think anyone was any more lesbian than I was or suffered more over this. I even wore a tie at around age 18-19. (I can’t believe I admitted that.) You would never guess that from seeing me now. Also, I’m not a suicidal personality so never went there and never will but had actually contemplated it (really sort of self bandaging) to the point of once purchasing a gun for that purpose (quite a while back), and have gone through all kinds of really intense long-term depression over this throughout my life.
I know I have earned the right to speak on this issue. And I believe and know from the depths of my heart that God’s Word can pull anyone out of this. I also know that in the end it is going to be what we make of it. For me change was not possible until I realized that the problem was really a heart issue and there were things inside me that needed (and still need to) change. It is only from that point that change comes, and even then it’s a very long hard road for most. But worth it!
I agree that most people who have strong same-sex attractions will always struggle to some degree, some more than others, and yes there are a lot of gray areas. But then, even “straights” struggle with same sex attraction all the time. I can clearly see it in their eyes, everyday, everywhere I go, in all types of people by the numbers. Many harbor their desires secretly.
1 Corinthians 10:13:
“No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to humanity. God is faithful and He will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation He will also provide a way of escape, so that you are able to bear it.”
Amplified:
“For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.”
I certainly would never want to force anyone into change, and if someone can’t find that place inside of themselves then they can’t. But I think it’s important to at least realize that we already hold the key. And I think God’s Word shows us that.
I love the lyrics of “Get Together” by The Youngbloods (1967):
If you hear the song I sing,
You must understand
You hold the key to love and fear
All in your trembling hand
Just one key unlocks them both
It’s there at your command
January 6, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Hi Everyone,
Speaking of amazing women…
I tuned into Joyce Meyer online this evening and caught a very interesting episode of her daily podcasts titled “Your Brain and You – Pt 2″.
Of course, I could not help but think of all of my dear friends here at this blog and wanted to share. It will be moved to another page tomorrow but can be found for about another month if you go to her website http://www.joycemeyer.org/default.htm and click on the daily TV broadcast, then look for “Previous TV Broadcasts”.
Joyce is an awesome woman who always fascinates me by her positive attitude and how well she understands not only the power of God’s Word, but also the power of the mind. This woman does not accept defeat or allow negativity to control her life (any longer).
In this episode she interviews another amazing Christian woman, Dr. Caroline Leaf, author of the book titled “Who Switched Off My Brain”. Dr. Leaf is a master in the workings of the brain, and how profoundly our thought processes affect every aspect of our lives.
So often times it happens that we live our lives in chains and we never even know we have the key. Eagles, Already Gone (1974)
January 6, 2009 at 10:49 pm
I appreciate Melissa’s story and willingness to share her struggle so publicly. I pray for continued strength and grace on her continued journey.
I actually heard her speak several years ago at a Restoring the Glory conference.
One of my issues with what frequently comes out of the Focus on the Family camp is that every testimony and article seems so clear-cut and black-and-white.
Alot of what I have heard from the Focus on the Family people sounds something like this:
“I was gay. Now I’m not. Praise God.”
Everything seems so cookie-cutter perfect and like everyone else out here who still struggles or–God forbid–fails periodically is left to try to aspire to be like one of these testimonials that is placed on the pedastal of this-is-what-you-should-be-like-if-God-really-heals-you-from-your-depraved-homosexual-ways. Forgive me for my bitterness but for just once i want to hear someone say, “yes, I have chosen to give up my homosexual ways due to God’s grace…but i still struggle incredibly to kiss another woman…to be with another woman…and no i have not been healed yet with my dislike of my femininity. ”
In all honesty, you know when you see or hear people like Melissa (and even you, Karen, sorry…) tell their stories…you know everyone is wondering, “So, have they messed up at all in their journey of avoiding homosexual behavior.” And I think I wonder that because that seems normal to me to mess up from time to time…I always wonder if Melissa or you, Karen, are just white-knuckling it, ya know? Because if you are, that atleast makes me feel more normal…and not so….gay….
January 7, 2009 at 10:35 am
Of course we have all messed up in our journeys, one way or another, and will again in some form. No one worth their salt achieves success otherwise, and I don’t think anyone is claiming to.
It continues to puzzle me that people expect God to heal them from thoughts relating to behavior that is classified as sin in scripture. God can intervene to heal us of our wounds (He is waiting patiently on us to allow Him) but cannot and will not prevent us from having sinful thoughts. That would be against His nature.
Our thoughts (desires) are self-willed and self-governed. They will either promote healing or serve to reinfect our wounds. Either way, our thoughts perpetuate more of the same thoughts. It’s a never-ending cycle. Why can’t people understand what is happening?
No matter what resources God gives us, how can deliverance come when we keep thinking the same old thoughts? It’s just impossible.
Success stories always fascinate us. We are baffled by how others achieve the things we cannot. How does the immigrant who comes to the US, unable to speak or write English and with no help from anyone, establish a successful business while so many other men who are born and bred here and granted benefits and privileges cannot achieve that?
You will find that success does not jump into their laps; rather there is always something a little—or a lot—different in their thinking.
It is usually a combination of values such as: strong conviction, assuming full responsibility for the results, relentless persistence, and an unfailing belief that their goal is attainable.
I really like this Excerpt from Dr. Caroline Leaf’s Website:
“Are you at cross-purposes with yourself – going through the motions, but not really committed to the goal, saying one thing but meaning another?”
January 7, 2009 at 11:28 am
Anonymous,
I appreciate your comments and those of the others that have posted. It is always good for those who are leaders in the ministry of SSA to hear this kind of feedback. Sometimes leaders (in any issue) can reach a place in their own healing that they lose some of their ability to relate to those still in the thick of things.
I understand what you are saying because I have had many similar thoughts over the years. I spent ten years in a place of white-knuckling it, failing etc. It was an awful, awful time for me and not one that I ever want to go back to. It was SO hard having to white-knuckle it. It was exhausting being tormented with wanting a relationship I couldn’t be in. I am SOOO thankful that I am in a place where I don’t feel like I am white-knuckling it anymore or that I am still slipping up. I have been celibate for over seven years now. Do I miss kissing women? Of course. But, I am also okay with that. It doesn’t throw me for a loop like it used to. Also, I can’t speak for Melissa, but I know when I asked her a few years ago how long she had been celibate she said 12 years. And, I know some of those years, especially the early ones were excruciatingly hard for her. So, she can relate to white-knuckling it–though thankfully that is not her common experience anymore.
Do you really wish that we were still white-knuckling it? Do you hope for yourself that at some point you will find some relief from white-knuckling it even if you still have SSA?
I still have attractions that are just as strong for women, but somehow it is different now. I don’t feel consumed or bothered by it. In the past I would feel compelled to act on an attraction. Or, I would feel disillusioned and question everything when I did. I constantly contemplated throwing in the towel. Even though the attractions are still there, I am just at a different place with them. Part of that is simply age and experience. In my 20s I was more impulsive and would more readily get involved with someone who wasn’t necessarily the best match for me. Now that I am in my mid-30s, I am more selective in what I want in a relationship. Even as I feel a strong attraction to someone, I can see through that to whether I would really want to be in a relationship with that person. Now a days I am simply not interested in the majority of women. There only a few here and there that really grab my interest in a serious way. So that makes it easier to manage. And that doesn’t really have anything to do with SSA as much as I think that happens with age and experience.
Also, I have a great community of women friends–very deep connections with some dear friends and having those deep emotional needs met, makes me less “starved” for a romantic relationship. Even though I still would like a romantic relationship.
When I do come across someone periodically who I really find beautiful and amazing, I have periods of more intense struggle. But, I have learned that the intensity will usually taper down given time–whether a few weeks or several months or even a year (that is the law of attraction–physiologically, etc). And then, I can usually have a deep emotional connection on a friendship level with that person without always feeling a longing to be with them physically.
I am very cognizant of my vulnerability and capability of getting back into a relationship. That awareness makes me less likely to feel disillusioned when I do feel attracted to someone. I get nervous when I hear an ex-gay ministry leader say they could “never do that again.” Or say they could “never have SSA” again. Of course they could. We are capable of doing any number of things we wouldn’t think we would do. One ex-gay leader who wrote books and spoke frequently etc for 10 years, all of the sudden was taken off guard by a very strong attraction to a woman. Within two months she had quit the ministry and was with this woman. She was startled by it because she wasn’t expecting it. Leaders would do well to always be aware of their vulnerability so they aren’t so shaken or disillusioned if someone comes along and surprises them.
Anyway, it all comes down to the fact that we are all different people with different stories. So there will be parts we can relate to in someone’s testimony and parts we may not. I remember having a conversation with another ministry leader awhile ago whom I told that I felt it would hurt my ministry if I ended up becoming heterosexual and getting married because then some wouldn’t relate to me as much anymore. And this other leader said she had the opposite problem where she felt not being married hurt her testimony in ministry. So, there is always pressure for all sides to be a certain way for the expectations of others. But, ultimately, we have to live our own journey.
In any case, I do try to be honest with where I am at–and have been very frank about the fact that I still have SSA. In different posts like my article on Yarhouse and Jones ex-gay study I talk about my feelings around not experiencing as much change in attraction as I would like.
Anyway, keep giving your feedback and helping those of us who do this ministry how we can better communicate and be relevant and real. I appreciate it!
January 7, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Karen,
That was a great response and quite interesting. I have no reason to doubt what you are saying about where you are at and not having to white knuckle things anymore, etc., and so I am very happy (and surprised) to hear how well you are doing with that…you elaborated a lot. (We love to hear about your personal life around here.)
All things considered I think I have achieved a really good level of success with this whole issue (still a long way to go) but quite honestly you seem to be doing much better than I do with handling your attractions to women. Like with yourself, things do change with age in terms of who I will be attracted to but I am still extremely vulnerable to certain women (not as many anymore) and can very easily fall into those serious attraction problems. Once I really allow that to start I’m pretty “hopeless” and will most likely be in a major downward spiral that can last months or literally years.
One of the primary things that saves me is that along the way I have developed great relationships with men and have been tremendously blessed by wholesome associations with a lot of really wonderful men. It is a complete joy to be around them and a distraction from women. In the process I have developed a deep admiration and respect for men as well as healthy attractions, and it actually tends to override my attractions for women.
For instance… I go to this bank sometimes where there is a very, very pretty teller. I always find myself having to ward off physical attractions when I have to talk to her and hope I will not have to use her. The other day I was there and there was this man in line in front of me turned to the side so I could see his face. He was completely beautiful and took me by surprise. As the line slowly moved on I actually almost wanted to kiss him (true story), which doesn’t usually happen to me in banks.
She was there, as pretty as she ever was, but he was honestly all I could see. I tried to hide under my baseball cap and prayed that he wouldn’t look at me cause I thought my feelings would show. He actually started talking to me and his sweetness matched his outward beauty. I looked at the woman—aware of how I had been attracted to her in the past—but couldn’t even see her. He was really all I was interested in. When I left there I thought about him all the way to the coffee shop, completely elated.
It is interesting that you are managing your attractions to women so well (much better than I do) yet do not indicate that you have really developed any significant attractions for men, whereas I have.
January 7, 2009 at 7:37 pm
Wow I just happened to notice that some new comments had been posted to Karen’s latest blog entry about Melissa Fryrear interview so I thought I would check em out and I’m glad I did.
Interesting comments around this whole issue and I want to thank everyone for being so frank and honest especially anonymous. I can’t relate as much to this so called ‘white-knuckling’ thing as I have never been with a woman ‘in that way’. In only one of my ED (emotionally dependent) relationships did we come close to crossing the line from normal to romantic affection. I have been told or should I say ‘warned’ by some of my SSA friends who have crossed that line to not do it because it makes saying no in the future that much harder. Personally I feel that is wise advise that I plan to follow. One of my strong points is the ability to learn from other’s mistakes. I’m not one of those who needs to find out if the burner is hot by touching it myself if I have just witnessed another get burned by it. That’s not to say that I think I am stronger or wiser than the person who did, rather it just means I don’t want to experience the same pain if I don’t have to, does that make sense?
So since we are on the topic of SSA testimonies I would like to share what it feels like to be someone who has SSA but has never acted out on it. There have been times I feel that because I have never acted out on my attractions that my experience is not as legit as someone who as or I’m not taken as seriously. I was once a part of a woman’s process group in which one of the requirements for membership was dealing with SSA. And yes for all who may be asking….. it was a recipe for disaster, I wouldn’t recommend it- that’s a whole nother’ story! LOL!! Other than myself there was another woman in the group who had not acted out with another woman but she was married. So as you can imagine I certainly felt like the ‘virginal’ group participant and what would I know about resisting sexual temptation or how could I possibly relate to ending a lesbian relationship??? I’ve even had one therapist surmise that because I had not been involved sexually with a man or woman that I must simply be incapable or afraid of being in a ‘mature adult’ relationship because of other issues. And that could very well be true but I don’t believe that to be the case. For some reason to me it seems sex is seen as the’litmus test’ for validity in this struggle.
All I know is that for me it’s always been the emotional component of the relationship that has been my downfall and in some ways I believe it went deeper than anything I could do sexually with the person, does that make sense?
So that’s my 2 cents in response to these latest posts. I do wholeheartedly agree with Karen about the deep connections with other people that help lessen the intensity of the struggle. I have noticed that if I go too long without meaningfully connecting with those closest to me, this area of struggle reaches a whole new level of high. It’s when I re-connect with those I care about that the feelings seem to dissipate and I don’t feel so intense or concentrated on the person I am currently attracted to. Although I know Hillary Clinton said this in another context a few years ago, I personally believe that what she said about raising children certainly applies to this particular area of strugge, ‘It takes a village’. Meaning we all need a solid group of community to come alongside us to help meet our relational needs. It’s unhealthy and unrealistic to think one person can possibly satisfy our deepest needs (most of us know that there is only ONE who can do that completely). And contrary to what many believe this also applies to husbands and wives, boyfriend and girlfriend, parent and child, etc. This past year I have purposely worked to develop and be in authentic community, christian and non-christian, and it has changed my life like I never thought possible!!! : )
Thanks everyone for listening to my thoughts and thanks again for being so honest!
January 8, 2009 at 9:39 am
I have also not acted on my SSA. I grew up in a Christian home and met some quite liberal (basically non-fundamental) Christians in my later teen years as I started to realized I liked girls. So part of it was them and part of it was I always fell for the girl I could never get. I know what it feels like Amazing Grace to feel like you are different from the other people who deal with SSA because you have never fully acted on it. That being said I am still in the white knuckling it stage. After all I am only 20. I go to quite a liberal university and I work at a job that most (not all for sure) straight girls wouldn’t work at so the opportunity is always there so it’s hard. What I’ve found lately though is that the more I’m seeking God in my life the easier it is to deal with the these things that come my way. That and to on a daily basis, heck sometimes an hourly basis surrendering it to God and putting it in His hands because that’s the whole point. We can’t do it on our own.
January 8, 2009 at 7:00 pm
I can relate to the comments about having not acted on attractions. I had only minimal experience when I first started an ex-gay support group. I remember one of the other women making a comment about “oh, so you haven’t had much experience.” It was like my struggle wasn’t real or something. Even though it was very much an intense battle at the time. I’m not a big fan of exclusive ex-gay groups. I prefer models like Living Waters that form mixed crowds of people with various issues. Its healthier that way.
I almost felt like I needed to get myself experience to legitimize my struggle. Though, I think what really contributed more to my further involvement was just the fact that in the healing process–coming to acknowledge the reality of what I was really feeling (after so many years of repression and denial) made the struggle worse for a time and so I did end up in relationships etc. It was all part of the process. I learned a lot from my mistakes. But as you say Amazing Grace–it truly is better not to go there in the first place. It makes it much harder. And it affects brain chemistry–creates more of a “groove” toward that behavior.
To Anonymous and Sarah especially–I think I may write a post in the near future about white knuckling it. I can completely relate because I have been there (and can still have some intense stuff come up for me periodically). Maybe I’ll share some thoughts that have helped me.
Grace–as for the opposite sex–I will probably write a post sometime in February about my own processing around that.
January 8, 2009 at 9:01 pm
Karen,
I have a couple questions about something regarding a statement Melissa made here. Basically I think she is right on the mark, but in one respect only partially. She said at one point that people don’t choose homosexuality.
I would agree that initially, when a person is a child they do not choose it on a conscious level. There is a point, however, soon thereafter that the child becomes aware of these feelings. Of course they are confused by them and usually too ashamed to address the issue with anyone so they keep it hidden.
They also are not aware at that stage that homosexuality is sinful; they just simply don’t understand what it is. They usually do have a deep inner sense, though, that there is something very wrong with it. I believe that is partially innate and partially due to feedback and messages they receive from adults and peers; which in and of itself is pretty normal since children do tend to feel a strong sense of sexual shame or modesty, whether it is homosexually related or not.
While all of this is happening, however, they are taking mental steps (choices) cultivating these thoughts. In addition, there are many outside influences reinforcing all of this and they take more mental steps to deal with that. The problem is usually not addressed openly with others until at least the teen years and that’s another whole set of problems.
The point is, there is a stage very early on, in which mental choices are being made. At that time, however, the child is not aware of where the choices (thoughts) lead. Like when you are lost and decide to turn down a particular road in hopes of finding your way to somewhere. Still, you made the choice based on what you reasoned to be your best option.
Homosexuality seems to continue on in that same manner through the years. And then there comes a point when a person (such as yourself or I) makes a decision that homosexuality is wrong. By then they are already well down that road though. For me, I was aware that the Bible teaches homosexuality is sin around age 14 (prior to that I sensed it). That was before I entered the lifestyle, but I proceeded on.
I know you say you don’t know all the reasons why people become homosexual and believe it is most likely a combination of factors. I realize there is a lot of information out there, but from what I have seen personally any known biological or genetic causes are almost non-existent, although it is still theorized there may be something undiscovered. And the consensus seems that if it is discovered it would be too insignificant to make sexuality immutable. There seems to be a lot of psychological causes of homosexuality though. (I realize that also involves physiology.)
Either way, do you believe that “internal” homosexuality (not behavior) is to any degree a choice? And if so, how much? I know you’re thinking everyone is different…but if you had to generalize. For instance, with yourself do you feel that to any degree you chose homosexuality or still choose it?
I have all the reason in the world to have homosexual feelings but I have to honestly say that in analyzing my whole life I truly feel that I chose maybe around 80-90% or better of my struggle, even the struggle I continue to have. Not because someone told me that, I just really see it. I think I dug my own hole. Unless I am completely delusional; which I don’t think.
Do you think it’s possible some of us have chosen it while others have not?
January 9, 2009 at 8:48 am
Grace,
Melissa is referring to attraction, not behavior. People, most often, do not choose to have same-sex attraction. And many cannot rid themselves of it even when they try in many ways. The attraction is not a choice. How we respond to the attractions in behavior or lust however is a choice. Its possible that for you, personally, its more of a choice, but be careful about using your own experience to categorize everyone else.
I am going to ask that we not continue this particular dialogue on this subject since you have brought it up repeatedly in various ways both with me and Jay. I don’t want to keep repeating this over and over. Thanks for understanding!
January 9, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Karen,
I am aware Melissa was talking about attraction and not behavior. If behavior were all we were talking it would be an easy thing to resolve. It certainly doesn’t feel like a choice for me any more than it does for you or anyone else.
What I was referring to is indeed as you say how we respond (internally) to our attractions and desires, and what affect that in turn has on our problems. For me, after a certain point (and fairly early on) I began to respond exceptionally well on the outside, but admittedly very poorly on the inside and the problem escalated as a result. I know I could have, should have, responded better all along. Things would be so much better.
I understand your not wanting to continue the dialog on this. I really seem to have a one-track mind here. My apologies. No secret what my favorite topic is huh?
January 21, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Excellent video! I intend to share it.
I have been a Christian most of my life and I had struggled with SSA since I was thirteen or so. I knew that homosexuality was not God’s design, but I still struggled throughout my life. I prayed for and really wanted change in my life. After being married to my husband for fifteen years, God in His grace and mercy stepped into my life and rescued me from struggling with SSA. (Long story for another time. By the way, we just celebrated 24 years!)
In reference to some of the comments made in this blog, change did not happen all at once. It happened over time. There was a “white-knuckling” time for the first couple of years. But in time — after sharing my struggle with other “safe” individuals, praying, taking God at His Word and applying His Word to my life — there has been so much change in my life that I can hardly remember I had a struggle.
To clarify what I mean by change is that, where before I could not go through a day without thinking a homosexual thought or being tempted by another female, I now go months or years without being tempted. (Saying that, I also don’t allow myself to “hang out” with people that may cause me to struggle — just as an alcoholic should not hang around a bar room.)
Ten years later — yes, I can still be tempted; no, it’s not a white-knuckling experience anymore. My newly-evolved godly view of my femininity, my pursuit of healthy friendships and, above all, my constant dependence on God have all contributed to my change from a struggler, to a woman living in contentedness — at peace with herself and God.
January 21, 2009 at 7:31 pm
TrueFreedom,
Thanks for leaving a comment. I enjoyed hearing a bit about your process. If you have the time and inclination, would love to hear more of your story on this blog sometime.
March 12, 2009 at 11:15 am
I don’t know what I think about any of this any more. Melissa, at one time I would have said, was a friend, a mentor and my counselor. She is none of these things now nor do I remain in contact with her. I will not attack her integrity. She does believe and practice all she says. However, I get very angry when she says every one she has met/counseled with regarding homosexuality were sexually abuse. I was not. And I have personally corrected her several times. And yet she still claims this. (BTW-if she reads this comment one day she will know exactly who this is). That said. I no longer pursue “change” nor do I believe it is possible. But if someone paid me 6 figures, I’d sure pretend (and no I am not saying Melissa is doing that-I’m speaking for me). I am disillusioned with Exodus and the entire ex-gay movement. But I have several close friends who still hold to that doctrine. I think people of faith and followers of Christ should pursue a common ground instead of proclaiming the extremes as something to be attained. The narrow path is somewhere between grace and obedience.
March 12, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Ewe–I appreciate hearing what you have to say. It concerns me that folks in ex-gay circles can be so adamant about a certain viewpoint on the etiology of homosexuality.
I don’t know why Melissa has not responded to your feedback.
I too have my concerns about the ex-gay movement–from a cultural perspective. I do believe homosexuality is not what God wants for us, but I don’t agree with some of the ways the ex-gay movement handles the issue.
I’m curious as to what your process was that brought about your change of mind. It sounds like you were once a part of ex-gay ministry and now have decided to affirm your same-sex attractions? Would you be open to sharing a little bit about your process?
March 14, 2009 at 12:58 am
Sure Karen. I would be happy to share. This is where Jesus dwells. In the believers who are looking to bridge the gap in the extremes. I want to be a stone in that bridge to help Christ reach all He longs to love and touch.
I believe the biggest problem the two extremes (left and right) face is we aren’t willing to truly hear the other side.
I know Melissa Fryrear is far to busy to address some comment in a blog. And I never expected her to reply. But in fairness, I know it is her firm belief (for her own protection) to not keep deep friendships with any woman who has had same sex attractions. I, however, can’t live in that cocoon. God love Melissa. I miss her so much and when she trusted a select few of us with her silliness and her heart. But sadly, all of us witness to that had SSA and so now we are but a memory for her. But I get her reasons for that completely. Remove any possible temptation and success is easier to keep. I suppose. Lonely, but less temptation for sure.
Almost a decade ago I picked up and moved from my home state and relocated (on God’s says so and that still holds true) to be a part of a ministry in the south that Melissa Fryrear was a part of. I spent 5 years there trying to change and falling into deeper depression and self destructive behavior. I lost my job at a huge mega church and was, in my opinion, worse off than when God had “stepped in.”
I so desperately wanted to be right before God. To be good and pure. I wanted to believe everything I was being told by the staff and those on the same path as me that change was possible and that I was being blessed for the sacrifices I was making for my God. But I think the final straw for me was when I attended my last Exodus Conference in CA at Azusa Pacific. I spent a lot of money for the conference and to get there (because now I lived 2 time zones away). And as the week progressed I became increasingly unraveled. By the 3rd day I reported to the support staff that I was having wild fantasies of throwing myself off the 8 story dormitory building I was staying in. I was fearful of failure. But I was told to stop attending the workshops and meetings because obviously it was becoming to unsettling for me. I was, well I was really ticked off. I spent at least 2 thousand dollars to be there and I wanted to have freedom, not be told to stay in my room.
I completely lost sight of Jesus and the cross and became fixated on my inability to change. Legalism is my true thorn in my flesh. I know this to be true because as a Christian in my early 20s when I had my first sexual experience with 1 of my best Christian girlfriends, I truly believed God would think it noble of me to kill myself than to sin against Him in this horrible way. God never wanted that from me. He showed me years earlier when I was 17 in the book of Ecclesiastes 7 16-18 Do not be excessively wise, why ruin yourself. And do not be excessively wicked, why die a fool before your time. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.
I have lived in the camp of each extreme. And somewhere between grace and obedience is the narrow path paved in faith.
I haven’t been back to an exodus conference. On my 5th year anniversary of blind trust in God and moving to be a part of this ministry I stopped going. I quit. I figured I gave you 5 years at this God and frankly, I’m getting worse. I becoming more self destructive and picked up a drug habit I hadn’t had before. How was that healing?
I began to reexamine all I called “truth”. Did I believe what I did because I believe it or was I just desperately trying to make it true. I wanted to belong. I didn’t know any other people but those in the pursuit of change. Socially, I couldn’t afford to be wrong. In fairness, I didn’t lose my real friendships as a result of my quitting. Most of my dearest friends fall on either side of this issue and still love me dearly. And I have the utmost respect of those on either side of this issue.
I had shared my testimony while in the ministry (and it was a good seedy sinful one, I mean, God did step into my life in such a way to stop my womanizing ways I was such an awful person when God stepped in). And I will say, the things I learned in the ministry that I met Melissa at, well I learned how to have healthier relationships over all. I am changed in the sense of I don’t seek to use women for my own needs. I am well loved and know how to truly love and I have great tools to make lasting healthy friendships. But when it came down to, who will you have that deep love connection with, it wasn’t a man.
I eventually learned I could have casual sex with men. I did so a lot to try to cure myself. It wasn’t a bad experience. In fact, I had a number of men pursuing me. But I knew I still was very strongly attracted to women. I mean, if I lived in the 1950s and had to pretend to be happily married because that’s what women did, I probably could have done that. But I didn’t want that. I wasn’t going to be unfair to myself and some guy who really tried to love me.
And now…well…now I am in that scary place of asking, wow God, is this Your grace for me?
I wear polyester cotton blend clothes all the time, breaking one of the laws listed in Deuteronomy. But nobody is making issue over that. I eat foods, crops that had mix seeds in the ground (another law in the OT broken) I eat shellfish (another abomination).
I ask, God are you more upset by who my heart longs to love or the fact your people (and I am included in that) spent over 25 million dollars on a political fight over who could marry whom when every day, every DAY I pass people living in blankets and if they are lucky, in tents, under a freeway over pass.
I ask, God, is your heart more broken by my desire to be faithful to the woman I love or is Your heart more broken by all the hungry homeless people I see EVERYday here in this city. I see on a minimum, 30 homeless people daily, collecting cans or plastic bottles for cash.
If God made this planet to feed and sustain His beloved creation man, I have to wonder, is the American Brand of Christianity more concerned with having enemies to create unity among themselves (and that cuts both ways in this issue-those pro gay and those anti gay) or are we willing to love our perceived enemies and fight the common enemy of hunger and loneliness and purposelessness?
When we are all (me included) willing to give up the gospel of American Consumerism and live as selflessly as Christ did, then and only then will we see the power of the Holy Spirit come and comfort us. But until we are willing to put down our securities (money, jobs, cars, family, status) and our entertainment (movies, TV, music, our safe church friends, books, and our general abundance) we will never unlock the power that God hold out to us who will dare to trust in His mighty power and no longer be duped by the American Dream.
All this said. With all the things I must over come as an American Consumer. Is God really really that concerned with who my heart is able to be tender with and molded by? Is He really all that worried when He can (and does) influence me with the attractions I have for another Christian woman when I hold her with an open hand and say, Jesus, your grace be with us. We can’t find another path. Even so, walk with us. Use us any way. And God honors that prayer. He speaks to me about where my heart lies. He asks me, are you practicing My presence or hers?
And I see, I could have just as easily fallen into a lopsided hetrosexual relationship and sought that before God. And we would have been celebrated for that. People would have said look, there is one of the healed. But I wouldn’t have been. I would have had this relationship 1st as a sign of my worthiness and proof of God’s love for me. And I would be just as lost (in the eyes of some I am lost and misguided because of who I love-but it’s mine. It’s my conviction and not what I was told to believe to be true)
At the very least, at the VERY least, I still seek God first and foremost even in all the attraction I have for this one woman, who, if given the chance, I’d be faithful to and let her go if God asked it of me.
I am so tired of fearing my Savior for my lack of perfection. I will never overcome this. And yet, like some sleepwalker in a minefield, He walks with me and guides me to another day.
Karen. None of us have all the answers. I am just so tired of those who claim they do and sell a false hope to people in the name of righteousness and in the name of God.
I am all for dialog and I thank God this wonderful and well thought out blog and I thank God for raising up people like you to bring us to the true Gospel of the radical Jesus I have read so much of and long to know in a radical way.
Let’s be part of the solution together. I don’t know what that looks like. But I think this is a start.
A broken spirit and a contrite heart, God will not despise. Could you imagine our world if every self proclaimed follower of Christ truly had their heart and spirit broken by the things that break God’s heart? That’s my prayer for all of us. And there is our common ground. I dare any Christian challenge me on that one truth. A broken spirit and a contrite heart, God will not despise. And if you claim such a place with God than I know you will drop your stones of righteousness and pray for all who Jesus has sought, even me.
Peace to you. Peace to you. Blessed are the peace makers, for there’s is the kingdom of God.
Let’s break down the walls together. I am willing. One blog and comment at a time.
March 15, 2009 at 9:54 am
Ewe–thank you so much for sharing your heart with us. I was deeply moved by what you had to say. And, I relate to so much of what you shared. I have had many of the same thoughts and feelings over the years. I also came from a background of legalism as well (If you haven’t already you can read more about my process in the posts My Coming Out Process I and II).
I became very depressed and frustrated in my efforts to change as well. So, like you I decided to get off that treadmill. The ex-gay ministry was helpful at first because I was able to be transparent for the first time and really get support from people who understood what I was going through. But, after a couple years, I just needed to move on. I tried to change for about five years. Then, I decided to stop making that my focus. That was the best thing I ever did. I put my focus on Jesus only and on being a productive contributor to society. This relieved a lot of tension for me. Perhaps where we differ is that even though I decided to stop trying to change, I did not go the next step to affirming homosexuality. I have not been convinced in my spirit that God releases us to engage on the basis of lack of change. For there are many things that don’t change in this life that we are called to bear up under. Just as Paul the Apostle earnestly prayed for God to remove his thorn, and it was not removed.
I agree with you that there can be an over-fixation on homosexuality to the neglect of so many other pressing issues in the world–like poverty etc. There has certainly been an unbalance in the fixation on homosexuality. I have never heard a sermon on domestic violence and barely hear a peep from the church about that. Though that has caused more damage to families than homosexuality.
I have a question for you. What do you think about sexuality as it fits into ethics? You mentioned that you also had sex with many men to try to cure yourself. Do you see any sexual conduct outside of marriage as being acceptable? Are there boundaries? If so, what would those boundaries be and how do we draw those conclusions?
As I have done research for my own process and studied gay-affirming theology etc I haven’t found anything that gives me a peace about acting on my same-sex attractions. Jesus indicates he believed in some form of sexual ethics. He said sexual immorality is what “defiles” a person. So, there is obviously something important about our sexuality. Its not something Jesus felt we could be nonchalant about (I write about Jesus on homosexuality as well as the Leviticus issues you mentioned. You can read the posts in the biblical/theology section).
Scripture says that our bodies are the very habitation of God’s Spirit. Our bodies are sacred. And sex is a very sacred and intimate act. Do you agree that what we do with our bodies matters? I guess I want to have a better sense of how you view sexuality. It sounds like (and correct me if I am wrong) that the primary factor in your deciding to be more open to accepting homosexuality was the fact that you did not change. Do you believe that if circumstances do not change that it infers blessing from God?
March 19, 2009 at 9:18 am
Karen, I am chewing on all you said. Very quickly, to answer your question on sex. No. I think ideally sex is something that is special and intimate and spiritual. I think I was misguided in my attempts to cure myself with men. But what’s done is done and can not be undone.
More on your comments later…
March 24, 2009 at 3:03 pm
Hello Karen,
I was thinking about what you said about sexual conduct outside of marriage. And I have to admit, due to my blind legalism, I was totally able to justify heterosexual sexual relationships based SOLELY on the fact that I was trying to change. Stupid and wrong.
Ideally, I believe sex is an intimate act between two loving people that ought not be taken for granted. And ironically, I came really believe and apply this to my life after meeting a woman who I truly love.
My past sexual experimentation with men is something now I deeply regret now that I know what intimacy is really like.
I would live very much to be married and live in a committed relationship with this woman, but there are many factors that keep this from happening, least of which being the law. I don’t need the law to be on my side if I believe God is.
After leaving you my initial comments I see now that I should not have been trying to overcome homosexuality, for you see, that was never my root issue. My true issue that I must overcome is my black and white legalism.
This is why I must pursue a path that is between the extremes, that is somewhere between grace and obedience. I will NEVER do this whole walk with GOD perfectly, and I need to learn to be ok with that first and foremost, and I am not. I want to be blameless…but then where is my need for grace, but by grace I am blameless…do you see the vicious cycle.
As I prayed today I had to come back here to say, it’s ok to say I don’t know. It’s ok to say I don’t have all the answers. And my whole reason for coming here to begin with was to help build the bridge.
I love bridges. Always have. I have always been fascinated by them. And I think this is why. I have many bridge building people in my life in and around this issue.
I believe Jesus walks with me. Even in my attraction to this woman I love.
I guess my conclusion if any is, I will always be with sin and willful sin no matter what just by the sheer fact I am alive and human. I am depending upon Jesus and God’s grace to save me and at the moment I am trying to not be motivated to follow God by fear, but by love.
And I am not there yet totally, but God has been making steps to bring me there, attractions and all. And frankly, I don’t know what that means, and I guess it’s premature to label that anything more than His grace.
Where else do we communicate on here about these things besides this one post
)
Peace
Jer 29:11
March 24, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Re: Do you believe that if circumstances do not change that it infers blessing from God?
I don’t know. But I have heard some compelling arguments from scripture that make me wonder if it’s prejudice that makes us believe as we do about homosexuality.
I don’t believe same sex relationships are in anyway damaging the way I had been taught before. So is my attraction something to over come like an addiction, I don’t believe so. And if in fact scripture and the teachings we know on homosexuality is based solely on bias and prejudice, then isn’t that good to question that?
Slavery was once justified by the Bible. I am sure keeping women from voting in America was justified by the Bible. The war in Iraq and our backing of Israel I am sure is defended using the Bible.
So if you are asking if I have come to a place where I expect God’s blessing on a same sex relationship I am pursuing based solely on the fact I have not changed, then No. I do not except that.
I think your initial question is left quite to circumstance such as, does the behavior harm others? Does it harm you? Does it get in the way of your Relationship with God? Does it violate Love your God with all Your Heart mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself?
I would love to have a dialog about a book called The Children are Free. This book has made me call to question much of what I accepted as fact, when in reality it was someone elses interpretation of things.
March 24, 2009 at 3:47 pm
Ewe,
I would like to jump in here. Admittedly, I am not one of the most popular posters here
but have been allowed to pretty much speak my mind.
The questions you ask are good and are ones that many of us have had once we realize that our orientations will not change. And the sexual relations with a man — I was married to one for twenty years for just the reason you mention you had sexual relations — to make myself straight and “normal”. There were blessings to the relationship, but a loving and fulfilling sexual relationship was not one of them.
Having said all that — I would like to state that I think the bottom line that ex-gay folks give for gay relations being wrong goes far beyond 6 verses that seem to say “don’t”. I intently sought knowledge, wisdom and help and every argument always seemed to end in the Creation account:
God made male and female. That is why it is wrong. It really doesn’t have anything to do with psychological “brokenness”, people who willfully turn their backs on God (as Romans 1 seems to indicate), or any other reason that needs fixing or can be fixed for that matter.
I have brought up many times: What about those who are neither male nor female? And what if a definitive biological cause is found that makes gay people involuntarily different? The answer I receive always goes back to the Creation Account — whether it is Karen’s blog or theological treatises on the matter.
So, I am sorry to say that these other questions about love, harm, etc… are moot if you take this position. Not with me, but for those so convinced.
March 25, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Ewe- I am glad you came back to share more of your thoughts. I was hoping you would. I get the sense that you are still in a process of trying to determine what you believe about homosexuality. At least that is the sense I get from your writing. It sounds like you are not quite sure. Some part of you maybe believes its not right. And some part of you wonders if gay-affirming theology is correct. But, you also seem content to be in the place of not knowing–perhaps even finding a certain safety in not arriving at a firm conclusion? To make a firm conclusion might be too difficult one way or the other?
I hear what you are saying about homosexuality not necessarily being damaging in the way that is sometimes conveyed. Even Scripture says sin can be fun for a season. And there are all kinds of co-habitating, unmarried heterosexuals who aren’t living miserable diseased lives just because they are having sex outside of marriage. I think the idea of being miserable is a poor tool used by some to motivate. But, in the end that doesn’t end up being a good motivator. People sin specifically because it does bring some kind of benefit, comfort, etc. We wouldn’t do it if there wasn’t some kind of payoff. The only real motivation for the way we live our lives is because we want to honor God–whether or not we would have been blissful or miserable in our sin.
You mentioned that you were not sure if God would approve of something if there was no change. Though, wouldn’t you agree that people are born with all kinds of conditions that are not a reflection of how God originally designed things to work? Certainly, we don’t hold prejudices against such people–it wasn’t their fault. But at the same time we do not pretend that blindness or cystic fibrosis is the right order of things simply because someone was born with it and it may be unchangeable.
Its interesting that you bring up the Children are Free. I actually have that book and have read it. You are right, it would make for an interesting discussion. Perhaps, I will do a book review on it in the next few weeks and we can discuss some of the statements put forth in it. That’s a good idea.
On a final note, you write: “I guess my conclusion if any is, I will always be with sin and willful sin no matter what just by the sheer fact I am alive and human.” I may be misinterpreting you here, but it almost gives me the impression that you are willing to acquiesce to something you might think is sin on the basis of not being sure and you cannot live a perfect life anyway. If that is an accurate reading of you, I have had similar feelings in my own journey. Though, I eventually came to a place of not wanting to settle for anything less than giving God my fullest devotion and effort–as imperfect as it might be. Simply because I loved him and wanted to do everything I could to thank him with my life.
March 25, 2009 at 10:00 pm
AM
Thanks for your reply. I get what you are saying. And a very interesting perspective.
And Karen, about misinterpreting me. You read me correctly. You’re right, I don’t know about the morality of the, “affliction” for lack of a better term, I have. I don’t call it that. But some do.
You see, like AM said, about being neither male nor female. That sums me up perfectly. I am internally and externally androgynous. Perhaps that isn’t the correct word, but when I pray, Karen, I ask God to speak to the male and femaleness in me. And He does. I believe God made me this way for a reason. I have a biologically female body, but not my mind and soul. That is not solely female.
And if we are, among other things, neither male nor female in Christ, what EXACTLY does that mean for someone like me?
The whole issue of sexuality is so beyond me. I really do question how many things we Don’t know were said in Jesus’s day that were left out of the Bible by someone who didn’t like it. I don’t know if that is at all true, but I do wonder. People don’t like gay people.
Any way, this is all a lot to chew on. By the way, Karen is this only your blog? I’m just wondering.
Even though I don’t fully understand or always agree with what you say, I do have a lot of respect for the thought you put into this and the patience you have in your replies. Thank you.
March 25, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Re: I eventually came to a place of not wanting to settle for anything less than giving God my fullest devotion and effort–as imperfect as it might be. Simply because I loved him and wanted to do everything I could to thank him with my life.
Much of my relationship with God has been motivated by fear of Him. And not in a good respectful way, but in the no matter what I do I’m wrong and You will punish me way.
I am only now (now that I am taking the, I guess we have to agree to disagree God and/or maybe everything I have been taught was based on prejudice-viewpoint) that I have been able to get a glimpse of a hope that God does indeed love me, He doesn’t want to snuff me out for being imperfect, and maybe, just maybe, I may begin to be motivated by His love.
But until the day I can say with confidence I love God and that is my motivation to _________ (fill in the blank) I won’t ever know what you mean Karen. But it is food for thought.
March 25, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Karen, I guess another thing is my well, how do I put this, besides having once been close to Melissa Fryrear, I have also met and spoke extensively with John and Anne Paulk and Sy Rogers.
I feel like my social connections read like a who’s who of Ex Gay Speakers.
But again, my error was in seeking change and perfection, not God. After seeing you’re testimonies list, I just had to add this post.
I also just read your bio. And, well, I am speechless…
March 26, 2009 at 10:36 am
Ewe,
I would like to thank you for your kind and gracious reply to my remark. It is encouraging that someone “gets” what I am trying to say about gender because I simply don’t think that gender can be divorced from our sexuality. Even ex-gay ministries understand that.
You mention your mind being not female. I would like to suggest that perhaps the term “brain” might be considered a relevant term here because scientists already know that the brain is impacted in utero with hormones for both humans and animals. For this to impact one’s sexuality is such an obvious correlation that I have wondered how the Christian church can hold to so many outdated ideas. But it has.
Again, whenever I have attempted to discuss that the term homosexuality might in fact be deconstructed by intersexism, I am usually met with the Creation account as the major obstacle to acceptance.
I have also been pondering the past few days that if we were to TRULY adhere to *all* aspects of the Creation account for sexuality, there would be just as much (if not more) censure of straight male/female couples who refuse to “be fruitful and multiply”. But we don’t. Strange, strange hypocrisy.
(BTW if you would like to contact me privately by email, I would enjoy discussing some of these topics further.)
March 26, 2009 at 12:58 pm
AM
I appreciate the offer to discussing these topics. But I don’t really know where you stand on Christianity and such.
I know where Karen stands because it’s all here on her blog.
I am not here trying to convince anyone for what I believe. I am here to understand more about Scripture, Jesus, my sexual/gender identity, and obedience vs. grace.
Actually, I stumbled upon this blog because of the post on Melissa Fryrear. I googled her and found this blog. You already read, I am sure, my post about her.
Most of all, I just don’t want to make the mistake of calling “evil” “good.”
I really don’t know where to land in all this. But for now, I am open to discussing things here via posts with you AM.
I really enjoy reading Karen’s writing. It’s very well thought out, it’s patient and warm and genuine. Frankly, it’s refreshing from anything else I have ever read on this issue and that’s saying a lot. My shelves are full of ex-gay books.
Thank you for the invitation AM. But I’d like to know more on where you stand, why you post here, and what you hope to accomplish by being here.
March 26, 2009 at 1:05 pm
AM: “…I have attempted to discuss that the term homosexuality might in fact be deconstructed by intersexism…”
What does this mean? Dumb it down for me please
March 26, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Hi Ewe,
I can understand why you would be hesitant to email just anyone. The problem is that I do not have a spiritual label that is readily accessible. I believe that you and Karen say that you came from fundamentalist backgrounds. I did not.
Nor would I ever call myself that. Evangelical does not fit me, either. Does that leave me outside the realm of “real” Christianity? I think not but not all would agree. If you read one of Karen’s “People”, Wendy Gritter, and her blog, I probably fit well within that framework of how they perceive things — as in a more open way than has been previously attempted by many.
Why am I here? Hmm…why does anyone post on a blog?
Seriously…I find Karen a highly intelligent woman and enjoy her observations. Do I agree with her? In many ways, no, but then, you say that you don’t agree with her, either. IOW I have no *agenda* for being here (probably contrary to what some individuals might think).
So if I have no agenda, by definition I have nothing to “accomplish”. And anyway, I have to accomplish in the real world; this is stimulating down time (at least for me) — hearing how others have grappled and wrestled with this.
And, I guess the area in which I most perhaps starkly differ with the author of this blog is that I believe that the homosexual “issue” is not as cut and dried as those in the past once thought. I have a number of reasons for thinking that, not the least of which is “intersexism”.
The original researchers of homosexuality called gays the “Third Sex”. Christians have by and large scoffed at this and yet modern scientific research seems to indicate that gay men and women *do* process information differently from their straight counterparts. If this is so, why is it so hard to imagine that the libido is affected by the brain in some to be immutely homosexual as opposed to heterosexual?
Gay men and women going through ex-gay ministries declare quite frequently how gender atypical they were at very young ages despite how they were raised. Is it really that offensive to say that you have a man’s mind and soul? I wager that it is if you find homosexuality offensive.
I apologize if it was inappropriate to ask if you wanted to correspond privately. I know that the Internet can be a less than safe place. I just was tracking with what you were saying and concur with your thoughts on the matter of linkage between how you feel inside and how you want to relate.
March 26, 2009 at 3:25 pm
AM
It was not inappropriate to ask. I am just cautious. I didn’t mean to say you had an agenda. I question everyone’s motives. That’s my nature. I question my motives all the time.
…I have attempted to discuss that the term homosexuality might in fact be deconstructed by intersexism…”
You didn’t really dumb this down for me. I am very interested in this statement.
And I haven’t ruled out your email invitation. I just haven’t decided, what if anything, would come of it for me or for you.
March 26, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Hi Ewe,
No problem; I understand. It is better to be cautious in the cyberworld.
I’m not sure that I can “dumb” down anymore. :-0 which is why I went into lengthy detail paragraph wise.
I guess all that I can say is to think about what *you* said regarding having a male mind and soul. Would this really make sense to a straight woman…? But there is something intrinsically understandable when you say it to a gay woman, is there not?
Let me leave it at that, for now. Perhaps someone else will want to chime in and explore the meaning of what you brought up.
March 26, 2009 at 4:03 pm
AM
I prefer Hey Ewe…to Hi Ewe
Ok, only a little funny
A man’s mind and soul…hmmm Well, that’s sort of true. I’d say it’s an 80-20 there of man to woman in my brain.
Ok…I will be patient and see what else is said on this matter you brought up.
March 27, 2009 at 6:01 pm
Ewe, You write, “You see, like AM said, about being neither male nor female. That sums me up perfectly. I am internally and externally androgynous . . . I have a biologically female body, but not my mind and soul. That is not solely female.”
I would be interested in hearing more about your view of yourself in this regard. What is it that is male about your mind/soul? And how do you know its male?
Also, are you indicating that you believe you have SSA because part of your inward self is male?
March 29, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Karen,
I have always been attracted to women all my life, even as a young girl as early as age 5 I was always more attracted to girls than boys. (if you were to see pictures, even how I dress, it very obvious-I know I know, stereotype).
So do I believe I have SSA because my inward self is male? No, for two reasons. No because my inward self is not fully male. And 2, the parts of me that are woman, are attracted to women.
I have parts of me internally in my mind/soul that are male. I hear them. I have a “committee” in my mind, that are me. Like an internal family. (they aren’t demons, believe me I have had people try to pray them out of me). Also these male parts of me, sometimes make me appear to my friends as more male and more well intimidating. It’s part of who I am. Internally, I am male and female. That’s just fact.
I know that sounds crazy. But it’s just how my mind works. And God speaks to me, and these fragments of me. Which really, that’s what they are, fragments of me. I am internally male and female. And I accept that. God accepts that. But now, how does someone like me live and be a part of God’s work and His family? I don’t know.
So when I hear in scripture that in Christ there is no Jew nor gentile, nor slave nor greek nor male or nor female, naturally I have to ask, what does that mean for someone like me?
Yes. I have a trauma history. Yes, I know these parts of me are ways to cope. But they are me, everyone of them, even the male ones. I walk in those parts of me fluidly. When I need unemotional rationale, the maleness in me comes and brings me there. When I need to be tender and nurturing, the female comes out more strongly. I consider myself quite fortunate to have a mind that functions this way.
But it makes my attraction to women twofold, emotionally, I am very drawn and in the physical I am drawn such a way that it feels normal and natural, like a puzzle piece falling into place.
I have always had lots of friends around me who believed they were transgendered. Several changed gender. I did not. I am not transgendered. I don’t believe I was born in the wrong body. I am what I am for a reason and I have no need to change.
So how does someone like me follow Christ. I do not want to be single and celibate. I want to love and be loved like anyone else. And I don’t know how to ever reconcile this with Scripture. And I don’t know that I should try any more. Maybe I should just accept my fate (based on all I hear from conservative Christianity) and prepare for hell since I am damaged due to sins in my family line or whatever and I am too rebellious to tow the line and be normal.
Is that really the message of Jesus for someone like me?
I end up praying, deliver me or permit me my humanity Jesus because I can’t find another way to live and if my actions will cost me my salvation, then take my life now before I lose my soul.
I don’t know how else to navigate all this mess called sexual identity and just identity in general.
I didn’t come here to this Blog, Karen, to convince anyone of what I believe. I am just trying to understand what I should believe. I want to be whole and pure and true. I want to love Jesus and let His love pour out through me. I want to love Jesus more than anything else. But all this…stuff keeps making me ask more questions than I am finding answers for.
April 1, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Hi Ewe,
Thanks for sharing more about yourself. You said something very honest that I think many can relate to which is:
“So how does someone like me follow Christ. I do not want to be single and celibate. I want to love and be loved like anyone else. And I don’t know how to ever reconcile this with Scripture. And I don’t know that I should try any more. Maybe I should just accept my fate (based on all I hear from conservative Christianity) and prepare for hell since I am damaged due to sins in my family line or whatever and I am too rebellious to tow the line and be normal.”
It seems like that is the issue that it comes down to for many–not wanting to live single and celibate. I wrestled with that too. We all naturally want to spend our lives with someone in a romantic, intimate relationship and its a loss when we don’t experience that. But, I wonder too if we elevate it too highly. That is, if we try to seek too much of our meaning in life from a romantic relationship. One does not have to be alone simply because one is not married.There are deep, bonded connections that can occur in friendships that do not include sex or romance.
It is also the question of–what do we want most and what are we living our lives for? I used to ask God–does it really matter if I am with a woman? What is the big deal? But, after time I came to trust that he has my best interest at heart. And I came to see that I am living my life for more than just trying to meet my present needs. This life is short–do I really want to live it primarily for a romantic/sexual relationship? Or do I have the “Big Picture” in mind that there is more to this life than just these few years–that there is a calling on our lives that is greater. I am a follower of Jesus called to do his work on this earth. And ultimately that has more meaning for me than anything.
Scripture says Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. He is to be first in our lives. Jesus said we would have trouble in this life in order to follow him. There is a cost to being a disciple of Jesus. And not everyone is willing to take on that cost.
You mention that this is causing more questions than answers, but I wonder if it is that you don’t want an answer because you are afraid of what that answer would demand of you. One of my former girlfriends used to say, “Ignorance is bliss.” Sometimes staying in the fog keeps us from facing what we don’t want to face.
Though I think when we do face those things, that there can be something rich on the other side. At least I found that to be true for me. Following Jesus no matter what the cost is totally worth it. I love my life living for Him.
April 2, 2009 at 9:17 am
Karen,
I think we should encourage *all* Christians — gay and straight to be single and celibate. The Shakers did this. This way all can serve God unreservedly and the heterosexuals can also see that a relationship is not a big deal. Paul says that it is the better way; if gays can and should be celibate, straights can adopt the practice, too. It should be a positive experience for everyone if we really believe this.
April 2, 2009 at 1:34 pm
AM
I love the Shakers!
) They were short like me.
And Karen,
I totally hear you. I get more scared because I find answers that are very satisfying and make quite a bit of sense in the face of God’s Grace.
I ask myself if the issue of romance and sexuality is that big of a deal when the man after God’s own heart, David, had how many wives and an interesting relationship with Jonathan to say the least.
I guess instead of bugging you with questions, I ought to find my place in God’s grace too. Just like you. And hope what ever I need to be for God comes to the surface because I have fallen in love with Jesus, just like you.
What that will look like on the otherside, I simply don’t know.
Thank you for always being gracious with me here.